Jaredite steel?

[_beastie]

You've got to be kidding. She hasn't read the diaries of the conquistadors; doesn't know where to find them. She's good a linking websites. She doesn't read scientific literature I cite her and reaches conclusions about it without reading it. She's poser you all admire.

Spoken by someone who obviously hasn't read my essays.

on the off chance anyone takes what bob says seriously, this will be the third time I've linked him to the thread in which the C. Ray article was posted and debunked.

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 36&start=0

(setting timer for how long it takes lawyer bob to once again claim I haven't read or responded to the Ray article....)

[_antishock8]

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels

“If you bare your testimony enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The testimony can be maintained only for such time as the Church can shield the people from the consequences of the testimony. It thus becomes vitally important for the Church to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the testimony, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the Church.” Mopologist

---------------

The Jaredites did not exist. They are fiction.

The Nephites did not exist. They are fiction.

There was no steel. No swords. No chariots. No epic battles between White Jews and Cursed-with-dark-skin Jews.

It is a lie. It is all a lie. Stop lying.

[_Runtu]

Another favorite quote along those lines:

"Power don't come from a badge or a gun. Power comes from lying. Lying big, and gettin' the whole damn world to play along with you. Once you got everybody agreeing with what they know in their hearts ain't true, you've got 'em by the balls." Frank Miller, "Sin City"

[_ludwigm]

Charcoal's been around for 15,000 years. Copper's melting point is easily within the heat generated by un-bellowed charcoal. Iron's melting point is not. Throw copper into a charcoal fire and copper will melt.

Except there's still no evidence that copper was made into swords or anything else that early in the Americas.

I am not an expert in dating, but I have read some of the diaries of the consquitadors as well as Prescott's appendix where he quotes from the diaries. They report swords. They also report Christian churches. Be that as it may, I don't think they would have got the sword part wrong. It seems in reading the diaries that the word "sword" applied to copper, obsidian and wood implements as well as Austrian steel two centuries old.

"They also report Christian churches."
- After their bloody missionary work, I think. Not at arrival.

Please explain this Austrian steel thing. Austria has nothing to do with Mesoamerica, New World, Mormonism or with this topic.

Did You learn this from G.W. Bush who has talked about Austria in Australia?
If it is Australia, it has nothing to do with Mesoamerica, New World, Mormonism or with this topic.

Please explain this two centuries old thing. From/to what date do You count the two centuries?

"I am not an expert in dating"
- Yes.

[_moksha]

Charcoal's been around for 15,000 years. Copper's melting point is easily within the heat generated by un-bellowed charcoal. Iron's melting point is not. Throw copper into a charcoal fire and copper will melt.

Right on. Then add in the Jaredite's Bessemer Converters, and you have steel.

[_Mercury]

Charcoal's been around for 15,000 years. Copper's melting point is easily within the heat generated by un-bellowed charcoal. Iron's melting point is not. Throw copper into a charcoal fire and copper will melt.

Dunno if you are following the conversation but were talking about steel, not copper.

[_Brackite]

Perhaps you could explain to me instead why it is the Hebrew reference to steel [Strong's H5154] is copper. That has always confused me.

Hello,

The Book of Mormon distinguishes between steel and copper. Here is 2 Nephi Chapter 5, verse 23, in the Book of Mormon:

2 Nephi 5:15:

[15] And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

Here is Now Ether Chapter 10, verse 23, in the Book of Mormon:

Ether 10:23:

[23] And they did work in all manner of ore, and they did make gold, and silver, and iron, and brass, and all manner of metals; and they did dig it out of the earth; wherefore they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper. And they did work all manner of fine work.

[_Zakuska]

<Moved>

[_beastie]

by the way, Zak, you stated that the "Olmec DNA is in" on the mirror MAD thread and linked this wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmec_alte ... s#_note-15

This DNA testing was done on native individuals who are NOW living in the Olmec area, NOT the ancient Olmec. The very same article that YOU linked explains the findings you declare show that the "Olmec DNA is in":

However, the same region is also where people of African ancestry arrived during Spanish colonial times as slaves, and intermixed with both the Spanish and indigenous peoples

and it also states that:

The great majority of scholars who specialise in Mesoamerican history, archaeology and linguistics remain unconvinced by these speculations.[36] Others are more critical and regard the promotion of such unfounded theories as a form of ethnocentric racism at the expense of indigenous Americans. The consensus view maintained across publications in peer-reviewed mainstream academic journals that are concerned with Mesoamerican and pre-Columbian research is that the Olmec and their achievements arose from influences and traditions that were wholly indigenous to the region, or at least the New World, and there is no undisputed material evidence to suggest otherwise.[37] They, and their neighbouring cultures with whom they had contact, developed their own characters which were founded entirely on a remarkably interlinked and ancient cultural and agricultural heritage that was locally shared, but arose quite independently of any extra-hemispheric influences.[38]

[_Runtu]

by the way, Zak, you stated that the "Olmec DNA is in" on the mirror MAD thread and linked this wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmec_alte ... s#_note-15

This DNA testing was done on native individuals who are NOW living in the Olmec area, NOT the ancient Olmec. The very same article that YOU linked explains the findings you declare show that the "Olmec DNA is in":

However, the same region is also where people of African ancestry arrived during Spanish colonial times as slaves, and intermixed with both the Spanish and indigenous peoples

and it also states that:

The great majority of scholars who specialise in Mesoamerican history, archaeology and linguistics remain unconvinced by these speculations.[36] Others are more critical and regard the promotion of such unfounded theories as a form of ethnocentric racism at the expense of indigenous Americans. The consensus view maintained across publications in peer-reviewed mainstream academic journals that are concerned with Mesoamerican and pre-Columbian research is that the Olmec and their achievements arose from influences and traditions that were wholly indigenous to the region, or at least the New World, and there is no undisputed material evidence to suggest otherwise.[37] They, and their neighbouring cultures with whom they had contact, developed their own characters which were founded entirely on a remarkably interlinked and ancient cultural and agricultural heritage that was locally shared, but arose quite independently of any extra-hemispheric influences.[38]

Zak thus demonstrates the importance of checking sources. You and I read the article he cited, but apparently he didn't.