For Charity: about your Oija board before your conversion

[_truth dancer]

OK, maybe it is just me but I feel like I am entering an alternative universe... or something. ;-)

Is anyone really suggesting that the God of the entire Universe, you know the one who created a trillion galaxies, the one who created life, the one who is supposedly omnipotent actually planted a few rocks on planet Earth with magical powers to foretell the future? Magical stones that would help Joseph Smith find buried treasures? Magical rocks that help someone translate a non-existent language into 19th century English? Magical stones that if one believes they are magical and has faith, will help them predict the future (or something).

Are we seriously discussing this as reality?

What kind of God are we talking about here.

We have a world filled with a long history of a horrifying human existence and God's solution is to put some magical stones in the ground where Joseph Smith and his friends can find them so they can find buried treasures and predict the future?

And, the tricky Satan can also use these stones to trick people?

I don't even know what to say... I feel that I have entered a realm of fairies, leprechauns, unicorns, and dragons.

I understand humans like the mystical and magical. I know, for many people there is benefit in believing the supernatural. I know faith gives many hope. I get this.

But isn't there some point where people just sit back and go, wait a minute. Lets get back into some sense of reality?

~dancer~

[_the road to hana]

But isn't there some point where people just sit back and go, wait a minute. Lets get back into some sense of reality?

~dancer~

I'd actually find the more esoteric aspects of the whole Joseph Smith story more acceptable if he had not already had a history with magic and treasure digging.

If he were someone who didn't participate in those activities, and then suddenly claimed to be given a seer stone by an angel, I'd find it somewhat easier to buy.

But having his life already filled with those elements, it's more suspect. What, God was looking for a teenage magician seeking buried treasure?

[_charity]

charity

I think Satan is capable of deceiving people. I think it is a lot less likely with some than others. Those who cultivate the Christ-like attributes, read the scriptures, pray, try to live a Christ-like life are much less likely than others. Those who cultivate hatred, chose self over service, disobey the commandments and law of God are more likely to be deceived.
In my opinion.

It amazes me you can make this statement without recognizing the problems it creates for your defense of Joseph Smith.

I have created no problems. I believe Joseph Smith was doing just what I said. He had Christ-like attributes, served his God and his fellow men, and gave his life for that service. Not a perfect man, but a perfecting man.

[_the road to hana]

I have created no problems. I believe Joseph Smith was doing just what I said. He had Christ-like attributes, served his God and his fellow men, and gave his life for that service. Not a perfect man, but a perfecting man.

You think he was Christ-like at fourteen? And incapable of being deceived?

(Someone is going to have to clue me in here. What's Christlike about marrying other men's wives?)

[_beastie]

(Someone is going to have to clue me in here. What's Christlike about marrying other men's wives?)

and lying about it to your wife while slandering and libeling those who correctly accused you of practicing polygamy

[_charity]

OK, maybe it is just me but I feel like I am entering an alternative universe... or something. ;-)

What kind of God are we talking about here.
~dancer~

I think we do inhabit different universes. Mine incliudes a God who does get involved in the small minor events of the lives of His children when they need Him to. And He knows when that is.

This week I had just that experience, being a tool in the hands of God to reach out to one of His grieving daughters to offer her comfort. Ayoung man I have known all his life died of cancer. He had a wife and 2 teenage children. I was asked to select the music for the funeral service. His mother, who does not have a great appreciation for music, gave me no direction, even saying there didn't have to be a soloist. Just congregational singing.

I got my hymnbook out, and before I even opened it, I was told by the still small voice to use "Come, Come Ye Saints." This is not a hymn sung at funerals in my experience. And then my hymnbook opened to "Be Still My Soul."

Be still, my soul: the Lord is on thy side.
Bear patiently the cross of grief or pain.
Leave to thy God to order and provide;
In every change, He faithful will remain.
Be still, my soul: thy best, thy heavenly Friend
Through thorny ways leads to a joyful end.

Be still, my soul: thy God doth undertake
To guide the future, as He has the past.
Thy hope, thy confidence let nothing shake;
All now mysterious shall be bright at last.
Be still, my soul: the waves and winds still know
His voice Who ruled them while He dwelt below.

Be still, my soul: when dearest friends depart,
And all is darkened in the vale of tears,
Then shalt thou better know His love, His heart,
Who comes to soothe thy sorrow and thy fears.
Be still, my soul: thy Jesus can repay
From His own fullness all He takes away.

Be still, my soul: the hour is hastening on
When we shall be forever with the Lord.
When disappointment, grief and fear are gone,
Sorrow forgot, love’s purest joys restored.
Be still, my soul: when change and tears are past
All safe and blessèd we shall meet at last.

Be still, my soul: begin the song of praise
On earth, be leaving, to Thy Lord on high;
Acknowledge Him in all thy words and ways,
So shall He view thee with a well pleased eye.
Be still, my soul: the Sun of life divine
Through passing clouds shall but more brightly shine.

And I knew I should get a soloist for this beautiful hymn of consolation.

Then the thought came to my mind for the very traditional "I Know that My Redeemer Lives."

I called the mom to tell her. She thanked me. In less than 10 minute she called me back. She had called her daughter-in law to tell her of the selected music and ask for her confirmation. The daughter-in-law told her that she hoped there could be a soloist to sing a song just for her. And then she asked, "How did they know that "Come, Come Ye Saints" was my husband's favorite hymn?"

God knew her needs and fulfilled them.

I'm glad to know the real universe, TD. The one where God loves His children.

[_the road to hana]

I'm glad to know the real universe, TD. The one where God loves His children.

Most people believe in that universe, Charity. But the God who loves his children doesn't just love Mormons.

TD's post doesn't have to do with whether God is loving or not. It has to do with whether God is capricious, and whether or not it's reasonable to assume God would entrust something significant into the hands of a 14-year-old moneydigger who was obsessed with the supernatural.

[_beastie]

God knew her needs and fulfilled them.

Yes, it's delightful to live in a universe where a god will intervene to choose a hymn for a funeral and yet refuses to intervene to prevent genocide, mass rape, and all various forms of abuse. That god is indeed "worthy" of praise and adoration.

[_the road to hana]

God knew her needs and fulfilled them.

Yes, it's delightful to live in a universe where a god will intervene to choose a hymn for a funeral and yet refuses to intervene to prevent genocide, mass rape, and all various forms of abuse. That god is indeed "worthy" of praise and adoration.

The hymn anecdote was just meant to shift focus from something Charity would rather not address.

It's interesting to me the hand faithful Mormons are dealt. They'd probably rather not have to deal with heads in a hat, moneydigging, seer stones and the like, but because it's been handed to them, they have to find ways of rationalizing and supporting it.

If it were any other religion we were talking about, someone started a religion because they dug up treasure, looked into a crystal ball, or claimed to speak with embodied spirits, they'd be discounting it.

I don't envy the position people like Charity are in. Many of them thought they were just buying the Book of Mormon as Another Testament of Jesus Christ, a folksy homespun religion seemingly close to their own, but hey, families can be forever. The former addicts like Gladys Knight and Glenn Beck have a place they can call home that keeps them from engaging in their former addictive practices and gives them a whole new marketplace, but I'm sure they'd rather not have to take the whole treasure-seeking divination mumbo-jumbo added in, they just do because they don't have a choice.

[_charity]

I'm glad to know the real universe, TD. The one where God loves His children.

Most people believe in that universe, Charity. But the God who loves his children doesn't just love Mormons.

TD's post doesn't have to do with whether God is loving or not. It has to do with whether God is capricious, and whether or not it's reasonable to assume God would entrust something significant into the hands of a 14-year-old moneydigger who was obsessed with the supernatural.

God showed His love for all His children when He restored His gospel through Joseph Smith. Then the children are left to chose it or not. God loves all Hs children. But do they love Him?

Yes, it's delightful to live in a universe where a god will intervene to choose a hymn for a funeral and yet refuses to intervene to prevent genocide, mass rape, and all various forms of abuse. That god is indeed "worthy" of praise and adoration.

You don't understand the purpose of life, beastie. And you don't have the eternal perspective. These 70-80 years of mortal life are a snap of the fingers. Any thing which people have to suffer and endure through no fault of their own will be made up to them in the next life. I know you don't believe that. Sad.