BYU athlete kicked out for not attending church enough ....

[_guy sajer]

He knew the rules when he came in. They're not a secret.

Indeed.

However, what happened to "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. "? A college student is old enough to sink or swim and all the Honor Code does is show distrust rather than affirming faith. BYU, the Church, and all the students would be better served by the elimination of the Honor Code and Student Life. Sure, you'll have much more scandalous behavior (perhaps not more, just out in the open); but the faithful can govern themselves.

It's really the some principle that shows Mormons living as a minority outside Utah to be stronger in their faith (imho and experience). It's Satan's plan to watch over our shoulders and check us every time we're about to do something wrong. The Church shows a real disbelief in it's own doctrine with policies such as this.

Yes, Satan and his minions are ever there whispering in our ears to attend Mormon congregations other than those in whose physical boundaries we live.

Is there another institution on this planet that trivilizes morality more than the Mormon Church does?

Apparently, that whole moral lesson about straining at gnats is nowhere to be found in the Mormon ethos.

[_guy sajer]

Wake up, people, we are hearing ONE SIDE of the story. And the other side cannot speak out.

Talk about gullible. Dad said this, and he is absolutely correct and has no reason to fudge a little to protect his son. You guys keep talking about how we are supposed to be skeptical and examine evidence and look for the truth behind the outward facts. I guess you don't believe that.

And Charity assumes that the BYU story is completely accurate in the limited details it releases and that there is nothing going on behind the scenes there, that all are acting in good faith, that all are being reasonable, etc.

Talk about gullible.

As I said, I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to the story, but I have no reason to believe, ex ante, which side is acting reasonably or unreasonably. Unlike Charity, I don't look at BYU with undimmed rose colored glasses. I've been there, I know the kind of shite that goes on there, at times (certainly not always--there are many good, reasonable people there).

Charity's got her head so far up the Mormon arse that she's incapable of critical thinking on the subject.

[_guy sajer]

Talk about gullible. Dad said this, and he is absolutely correct and has no reason to fudge a little to protect his son.

Talk about gullible. Joseph said this, and he is absolutely correct and has no reason to fudge a little to protect himself.

I would just like to see you guys show a little consistency. If you don't believe Joseph, why do you believe the dad?

It is the double standard that you guys so easily fall into that is so galling. At least, I looked at all the evidence before I made my choice.

Good figg'n Lord, Charity. You are the Queen of the double standard.

Do you actually believe that you are objective about anything related to Mormonism?

And just when I thought you couldn't be any more delusional, here you are, proving me wrong. I honestly believe that you possess no capacity, not even a scintilla, for critical self-reflection.

[_Tori]

Just got off the phone with my brother at BYU and asked him about this out of curiosity.

He said that the Honor Code specifies that you must attend Church Meetings in your actual ward and that everyone knows this.

http://honorcode.BYU.edu/images/stories ... rm2006.pdf

I thought there was "no Honor code violation".

If they suspend one athlete for not having perfect attendance, or not "asking for a calling", seems to me they are going to have a whole lot of suspending to do. We probably won't have much of a football team next fall. I bet Bronco is on the phone this morning rousting all of his players out of bed making sure they are attending their own ward. :-)

[_harmony]

I don't understand the whole "ask for a calling" thing. Since when do members ask for callings? Or is this another of those "only BYU" things?

[_charity]

Please try to remember that the only story we are getting here is a third hand at best.

The bishop told the son something.
The son told his father.
The father told the newspaper reporter.

Do you see any place in that little information tree where there could be problems.

Couldn't you ask the question was the son telling his father the truth?
Couldn't you ask the quesiton was the father telling the truth?

Where is all the skepticism that is supposed to garnish the thoughts of all you critical thinkers?

[_guy sajer]

Please try to remember that the only story we are getting here is a third hand at best.

The bishop told the son something.
The son told his father.
The father told the newspaper reporter.

Do you see any place in that little information tree where there could be problems.

Couldn't you ask the question was the son telling his father the truth?
Couldn't you ask the quesiton was the father telling the truth?

Where is all the skepticism that is supposed to garnish the thoughts of all you critical thinkers?

Please also try to remember that the only story we're getting from BYU is that which its public affairs office wants us to get.

I'm more than happy to concede that we don't have the full story. I think others here would be just as happy to do so.

YOU, on the other hand, give absolutely no evidence that you're willing to concede that BYU may not be acting in complete good faith.

YOU are a flaming hypocrite.

[_charity]

Please also try to remember that the only story we're getting from BYU is that which its public affairs office wants us to get.

I'm more than happy to concede that we don't have the full story. I think others here would be just as happy to do so.

YOU, on the other hand, give absolutely no evidence that you're willing to concede that BYU may not be acting in complete good faith.

YOU are a flaming hypocrite.

Thanks for the concession.

I am completely unwilling to make any judgement whatsoever on the merits of the case. I am not taking any side. We don't know the facts of thecase. But that hasn't been what this thread is about. It has been about criticizing BYU when WE DON"T KNOW the facts of the case.

That is all I have been trying to say. If we could lay it all out, if the case were that the student had 60% attendance at his BYU ward, and the other 40% in other wards, then BYU is wrong, since there should be reasonable allowances for not attending the home ward 100% of the time. But we don't know that is the case. We know that is what one side says.

There has been critcism that athletes at BYU, particularly "stars," get let off the hook for honor code violations. I would think if anything, that there would be a presumption that such a violation as this article reported, even if the student was ward hopping, would be overlooked in order to keep a star on the team. Thus opening up a different type of critcism.

[_guy sajer]

Please also try to remember that the only story we're getting from BYU is that which its public affairs office wants us to get.

I'm more than happy to concede that we don't have the full story. I think others here would be just as happy to do so.

YOU, on the other hand, give absolutely no evidence that you're willing to concede that BYU may not be acting in complete good faith.

YOU are a flaming hypocrite.

Thanks for the concession.

I am completely unwilling to make any judgement whatsoever on the merits of the case. I am not taking any side. We don't know the facts of thecase. But that hasn't been what this thread is about. It has been about criticizing BYU when WE DON"T KNOW the facts of the case.

That is all I have been trying to say. If we could lay it all out, if the case were that the student had 60% attendance at his BYU ward, and the other 40% in other wards, then BYU is wrong, since there should be reasonable allowances for not attending the home ward 100% of the time. But we don't know that is the case. We know that is what one side says.

There has been critcism that athletes at BYU, particularly "stars," get let off the hook for honor code violations. I would think if anything, that there would be a presumption that such a violation as this article reported, even if the student was ward hopping, would be overlooked in order to keep a star on the team. Thus opening up a different type of critcism.

No, Chairty, it's a well-established pattern of behavior. I have never seen you accept ANY criticism of the Mormon Church, its leaders, doctrines, history, etc. as possessing any legitimacy. You NEVER demonstrate anything remotely akin to an open, objective mind. You demonstrate NO capacity for critical self-reflection.

It is the height of hypocrisy, therefore, for you to chide critics for their presumed lack of objectivity, when you are the very epitome of a closed-minded, biased view. Get off your frig'n high horse and take an honest critical look at yourself and your beloved Church.

You can still love something and recongize its flaws. Yet taking you at your internet personna, the Mormon Church has no flaws, and neither do its leaders.

For that huge beam in your own eye, you are certainly adept at seeing the mote in others'.

[_the road to hana]

Please try to remember that the only story we are getting here is a third hand at best.

The bishop told the son something.
The son told his father.
The father told the newspaper reporter.

Do you see any place in that little information tree where there could be problems.

Couldn't you ask the question was the son telling his father the truth?
Couldn't you ask the quesiton was the father telling the truth?

Where is all the skepticism that is supposed to garnish the thoughts of all you critical thinkers?

I prayed about it and had a witness of the Spirit that it was true. So it doesn't matter what Joseph, er, I mean, the father said. It's true.