BYU athlete kicked out for not attending church enough ....

[_the road to hana]

Attendance is not taken by name, but only numbers of people attending. I know that because that is one of my husband's jobs as ward membership clerk. To count the number of people in the room (and the halls). But he does not take by names. That is the procedure in the Church.

[ignore charity's patronization, again]Yes, Charity, I know all about what ward clerks do, and am well aware that a head count is taken. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking, how would the bishop know if the student was or was not in attendance at a student ward, unless he was specifically looking for him or her?

Most of the branch presidents I had at BYU wouldn't have had a clue who was there and who wasn't, aside from people in higher leadership callings.

I just wanted to know who was taking individual attendance, if at all.[/ignore patronization]

[_Trinity]

So, Charity, do you think BYU students should never go home to visit their family on the weekends, if they live within distance to do that?

BYU was fine with me doing it for special occasions like missionary farewells once in a while. However, they wanted me to have 80% attendance in my BYU ward.

Was that BYU wanting you to have 80%, or was that a bishop's expectation?

[_asbestosman]

Was that BYU wanting you to have 80%, or was that a bishop's expectation?

80% attendance is what the Bishop's counselor told us. I don't remember if he made it up himself, got it from the stake president, or got it from the BYU administration. All I remember is that if we didn't attend at least 80% of our meetings that we would not get our ecclesiastical endorsement in that ward. They warned us that attending another ward would not count and then told scare stories about ward hoppers who soon went inactive.

[_charity]

[ignore charity's patronization, again]Yes, Charity, I know all about what ward clerks do, and am well aware that a head count is taken. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking, how would the bishop know if the student was or was not in attendance at a student ward, unless he was specifically looking for him or her?

Most of the branch presidents I had at BYU wouldn't have had a clue who was there and who wasn't, aside from people in higher leadership callings.

I just wanted to know who was taking individual attendance, if at all.[/ignore patronization]

Nobody is "taking attendance." Today, our ward had 208 people in attendance. I think I could pretty much write out a list right now of who was there. I'll bet our elder's quorum has a really good idea of who was there from the elder's quorum. I think our Relief Presidency knows who came today and who didn't of the sisters. Ditto Primary and YM/YW. This is not some fantastic trick.

And when you begin to "miss" someone, you look for them even harder the next time. And the next. I think you are ignoring basic human memory.

[_the road to hana]

[ignore charity's patronization, again]Yes, Charity, I know all about what ward clerks do, and am well aware that a head count is taken. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking, how would the bishop know if the student was or was not in attendance at a student ward, unless he was specifically looking for him or her?

Most of the branch presidents I had at BYU wouldn't have had a clue who was there and who wasn't, aside from people in higher leadership callings.

I just wanted to know who was taking individual attendance, if at all.[/ignore patronization]

Nobody is "taking attendance." Today, our ward had 208 people in attendance. I think I could pretty much write out a list right now of who was there. I'll bet our elder's quorum has a really good idea of who was there from the elder's quorum. I think our Relief Presidency knows who came today and who didn't of the sisters. Ditto Primary and YM/YW. This is not some fantastic trick.

And when you begin to "miss" someone, you look for them even harder the next time. And the next. I think you are ignoring basic human memory.

Again, I think you might be being slightly more patronizing than you need to be.

I've spent many many years in the LDS Church; I know the drill. BYU student wards are not like other wards, at least they certainly weren't when I was there. People aren't there for five, ten, twenty years, and like I said, when I was there, attendance was sporadic depending on whether people were in town or went home for the weekend. Branches then were quite large and not everyone knew everyone else. We certainly didn't sit around and pay attention to who was there and who wasn't.

Plus, that was before the block schedule, so we were at some meetings earlier in the day, and Sacrament Meeting on Sunday night. Someone might have made it to Sacrament Meeting, but not morning meetings, or vice versa.

I was in several student branches (now wards) while there, and I can assure you that there were only two branch presidents who would have known me by name.

I've been in plenty of wards before and since where yes, people knew each other and might have noticed whether someone was missing. For that matter, I could attend the local ward here and tell you if someone was out of town, and I'm not even a member.

That isn't the same as BYU wards, particularly BYU singles wards, at least, it doesn't match with my (yes, personal) several years of experience with them.

[_charity]

Again, I think you might be being slightly more patronizing than you need to be.

I've spent many many years in the LDS Church; I know the drill. BYU student wards are not like other wards, at least they certainly weren't when I was there. People aren't there for five, ten, twenty years, and like I said, when I was there, attendance was sporadic depending on whether people were in town or went home for the weekend. Branches then were quite large and not everyone knew everyone else. We certainly didn't sit around and pay attention to who was there and who wasn't.

Plus, that was before the block schedule, so we were at some meetings earlier in the day, and Sacrament Meeting on Sunday night. Someone might have made it to Sacrament Meeting, but not morning meetings, or vice versa.

I was in several student branches (now wards) while there, and I can assure you that there were only two branch presidents who would have known me by name.

I've been in plenty of wards before and since where yes, people knew each other and might have noticed whether someone was missing. For that matter, I could attend the local ward here and tell you if someone was out of town, and I'm not even a member.

That isn't the same as BYU wards, particularly BYU singles wards, at least, it doesn't match with my (yes, personal) several years of experience with them.

It might be a generational thing. I was in BYU wards in 1960-63.* Single wards. Except in the last one, there were about 15 couples, the rest singles. We were on the block schedule. I was in 3 different wards during those years. The bishops knew who I was. We knew each other. We had ward socials to get acquainted.

*I'm not sure if they were called branches or wards. As I recall, we had a bishop, but the two counselors were not high priests.

[_the road to hana]

Again, I think you might be being slightly more patronizing than you need to be.

I've spent many many years in the LDS Church; I know the drill. BYU student wards are not like other wards, at least they certainly weren't when I was there. People aren't there for five, ten, twenty years, and like I said, when I was there, attendance was sporadic depending on whether people were in town or went home for the weekend. Branches then were quite large and not everyone knew everyone else. We certainly didn't sit around and pay attention to who was there and who wasn't.

Plus, that was before the block schedule, so we were at some meetings earlier in the day, and Sacrament Meeting on Sunday night. Someone might have made it to Sacrament Meeting, but not morning meetings, or vice versa.

I was in several student branches (now wards) while there, and I can assure you that there were only two branch presidents who would have known me by name.

I've been in plenty of wards before and since where yes, people knew each other and might have noticed whether someone was missing. For that matter, I could attend the local ward here and tell you if someone was out of town, and I'm not even a member.

That isn't the same as BYU wards, particularly BYU singles wards, at least, it doesn't match with my (yes, personal) several years of experience with them.

It might be a generational thing. I was in BYU wards in 1960-63.* Single wards. Except in the last one, there were about 15 couples, the rest singles. We were on the block schedule. I was in 3 different wards during those years. The bishops knew who I was. We knew each other. We had ward socials to get acquainted.

*I'm not sure if they were called branches or wards. As I recall, we had a bishop, but the two counselors were not high priests.

You had branches. And the block schedule did not exist back then. My own experience is that singles wards/branches at BYU (at least, when I was there) did not have any married couples in them except for those who were the counselors to the branch president.

We're getting off track, here, Charity. I still find it hard to believe that someone was so fixated on this student that they noticed from week to week whether or not he was in attendance 100%. I can't even fathom anything like that happening when I was there. Sure, home teachers and/or visiting teachers (as the case might be) might be aware if someone isn't there regularly, but I would never consider the sort of attendance this student had to be inactive, by any stretch of the imagination.

[_JAK]

Just got off the phone with my brother at BYU and asked him about this out of curiosity.

He said that the Honor Code specifies that you must attend Church Meetings in your actual ward and that everyone knows this.

http://honorcode.BYU.edu/images/stories ... rm2006.pdf

What a restrictive and dehumanizing document to make college-age people to sign!

What relevance does it have to the academic or athletic performance of a student?

JAK

[_charity]

It might be a generational thing. I was in BYU wards in 1960-63.* Single wards. Except in the last one, there were about 15 couples, the rest singles. We were on the block schedule. I was in 3 different wards during those years. The bishops knew who I was. We knew each other. We had ward socials to get acquainted.

*I'm not sure if they were called branches or wards. As I recall, we had a bishop, but the two counselors were not high priests.

You had branches. And the block schedule did not exist back then. My own experience is that singles wards/branches at BYU (at least, when I was there) did not have any married couples in them except for those who were the counselors to the branch president. [/quote]

We had Relief Society and went right into Sunday School, then I guess. But we had Relief Society on Sunday and it wasn't until after that they moved Relief Society to Sunday in the regular wards.

We're getting off track, here, Charity. I still find it hard to believe that someone was so fixated on this student that they noticed from week to week whether or not he was in attendance 100%. I can't even fathom anything like that happening when I was there. Sure, home teachers and/or visiting teachers (as the case might be) might be aware if someone isn't there regularly, but I would never consider the sort of attendance this student had to be inactive, by any stretch of the imagination.

So since I can believe that a bishop notices things, it must be a case of waht you believe possible versus what I believe possible. And as I said, I wouldn't think a person going to his student ward 60% of the time and his home ward 40% to be inactive, either. I can't believe any bishop would either. Which is why I think we don't have all the facts.

[_the road to hana]

We had Relief Society and went right into Sunday School, then I guess. But we had Relief Society on Sunday and it wasn't until after that they moved Relief Society to Sunday in the regular wards.

That's correct. Priesthood/Relief Society was bundled into Sunday morning with Sunday School, and Sacrament Meeting was later in the day. It wasn't quite a block schedule yet, but unlike normal wards, Relief Society was held on Sunday instead of during the week.

And as I said, I wouldn't think a person going to his student ward 60% of the time and his home ward 40% to be inactive, either. I can't believe any bishop would either. Which is why I think we don't have all the facts.

One of the things that most amazes me is that BYU bent over backward when I was there to accommodate athletes (I know this from various positions I held there), and academically at least, many of them were allowed to operate under a completely different set of rules.

We had to be subject to an Honor Code and ecclesiastical endorsements when I was there, too, but I can't imagine ever hearing about anything like this.