For Charity: about your Oija board before your conversion

[_charity]

The whole Ouija Board thing with Charity helps us understand something very important, or even crucial, when we hear something like Charity telling us all that she "converted as an adult" (at the ripe old age of 19).

She was predisposed to magical thinking.

This predisposition therefor enabled her to buy into the idea that spirits or angels had visited Joseph Smith, that things like this are real, that it could happen, etc. It becomes not a question of "could this really happen?", and just a question of "did this really happen?" And the prescribed method of praying and then listening to one's feelings to decide matters of absolute, objective truth, is credible and believable.

In Charity's mind, things like the existence of spirits and the supernatural form part of the very fabric of her worldview. It is an axiom, not seriously doubted or subject to questioning, but assumed, and then relied upon as guidance in formulating answers to the various questions that come up during our lives, and in our philosophies.

I think the fact that Charity had owned a Ouija board before her conversion to Mormonism, and that she believed that it really worked, and that she believes it now, tells us an awful lot about the kind of mindset that has lead her to the absolute, undoubted, unquestioning, whole-hearted belief in Mormonism, with no holds barred, no doctrinal requirement too far-fetched, etc.

I am amazed that I actually agree with most of what you say. I wouldn't call it "magical" thinking. I accept a world view that there are realities beyond what we can see in the mortal world. Yes, I believe in angels, and spirits. Vision. Revelations. An existence before this life. And an existence after.

Isn't that what faith and the religious life are all about?

[_the road to hana]

The whole Ouija Board thing with Charity helps us understand something very important, or even crucial, when we hear something like Charity telling us all that she "converted as an adult" (at the ripe old age of 19).

She was predisposed to magical thinking.

This predisposition therefor enabled her to buy into the idea that spirits or angels had visited Joseph Smith, that things like this are real, that it could happen, etc. It becomes not a question of "could this really happen?", and just a question of "did this really happen?" And the prescribed method of praying and then listening to one's feelings to decide matters of absolute, objective truth, is credible and believable.

In Charity's mind, things like the existence of spirits and the supernatural form part of the very fabric of her worldview. It is an axiom, not seriously doubted or subject to questioning, but assumed, and then relied upon as guidance in formulating answers to the various questions that come up during our lives, and in our philosophies.

I think the fact that Charity had owned a Ouija board before her conversion to Mormonism, and that she believed that it really worked, and that she believes it now, tells us an awful lot about the kind of mindset that has lead her to the absolute, undoubted, unquestioning, whole-hearted belief in Mormonism, with no holds barred, no doctrinal requirement too far-fetched, etc.

I would add that it's a reasonable assumption that she did not have full disclosure regarding the church before she was baptized, and I'd be willing to bet that at least some things came as a surprise to her, if not a difficulty, when she learned them later.

[_Mercury]

I wouldn't call it "magical" thinking.

Oh? Well then what would you call it? Fairytale thinking?

I accept a world view that there are realities beyond what we can see in the mortal world. Yes, I believe in angels, and spirits. Vision. Revelations. An existence before this life. And an existence after.

So in other words you don't call "magical thinking" by its proper name...you prefer to avoid common definitions.

What a douche.

[_ozemc]

OK, maybe it is just me but I feel like I am entering an alternative universe... or something. ;-)

Is anyone really suggesting that the God of the entire Universe, you know the one who created a trillion galaxies, the one who created life, the one who is supposedly omnipotent actually planted a few rocks on planet Earth with magical powers to foretell the future? Magical stones that would help Joseph Smith find buried treasures? Magical rocks that help someone translate a non-existent language into 19th century English? Magical stones that if one believes they are magical and has faith, will help them predict the future (or something).

Are we seriously discussing this as reality?

What kind of God are we talking about here.

We have a world filled with a long history of a horrifying human existence and God's solution is to put some magical stones in the ground where Joseph Smith and his friends can find them so they can find buried treasures and predict the future?

And, the tricky Satan can also use these stones to trick people?

I don't even know what to say... I feel that I have entered a realm of fairies, leprechauns, unicorns, and dragons.

I understand humans like the mystical and magical. I know, for many people there is benefit in believing the supernatural. I know faith gives many hope. I get this.

But isn't there some point where people just sit back and go, wait a minute. Lets get back into some sense of reality?

~dancer~

Count me in, TD.

I'm much more in awe of a God that creates a star as large as the orbit of Saturn than one that would play tricks on His creation, such as creating seer stones.

I was just reading on the Whirlpool Galazy. Did you know that is about 23 million light-years away? We are seeing how it looked at least 23 million years ago? What was happening on this planet that long ago?

I'm amazed that the same people who say that God placed seer stones, magical oracles, etc. on this planet don't even realize when we look as the center of our own galaxy, we're seeing light that started in the last ice age.

[_Some Schmo]

Yes, I believe in angels, and spirits. Vision. Revelations. An existence before this life. And an existence after.

Isn't that what faith and the religious life are all about?

Well, yes, that's the superficial explanation for what faith and the religious life are all about, but if you look under the surface, escaping the difficulty and responsibility of critical thinking and intellectual honesty is really what faith and the religious life are all about.

Some call leaving behind their religious beliefs apostasy; I call it growing up.

[_charity]

The whole Ouija Board thing with Charity helps us understand something very important, or even crucial, when we hear something like Charity telling us all that she "converted as an adult" (at the ripe old age of 19).

She was predisposed to magical thinking.

This predisposition therefor enabled her to buy into the idea that spirits or angels had visited Joseph Smith, that things like this are real, that it could happen, etc. It becomes not a question of "could this really happen?", and just a question of "did this really happen?" And the prescribed method of praying and then listening to one's feelings to decide matters of absolute, objective truth, is credible and believable.

In Charity's mind, things like the existence of spirits and the supernatural form part of the very fabric of her worldview. It is an axiom, not seriously doubted or subject to questioning, but assumed, and then relied upon as guidance in formulating answers to the various questions that come up during our lives, and in our philosophies.

I think the fact that Charity had owned a Ouija board before her conversion to Mormonism, and that she believed that it really worked, and that she believes it now, tells us an awful lot about the kind of mindset that has lead her to the absolute, undoubted, unquestioning, whole-hearted belief in Mormonism, with no holds barred, no doctrinal requirement too far-fetched, etc.

I would add that it's a reasonable assumption that she did not have full disclosure regarding the church before she was baptized, and I'd be willing to bet that at least some things came as a surprise to her, if not a difficulty, when she learned them later.

Hana, have you been one of the people who has tried mind reading on me before and failed miserably? I haven't kept track of all those who keep saying "charity obviously thinks. . . ."

Let's see, what do you think I might not have known about? That there were apostacies in the early days in the Church. I had a really good book on Church history. Blacks and the prieshtood. Gosh. This was 1960. It occasionally made the newspapers. Plural marriage, starting with Joseph Smith? I knew that. Temple rites? Well, okay. I didn't know about the temple ceremony, but I didn't find it upsetting or disgusting or anything else negative when I went to the temple the first time. It was the old style, in the Salt Lake Temple, live actors, not movies, going from one beautiful room to the next. I thought it was wonderful. I did find about the Kirtland Banking scandal in a religion class at BYU. That was not disturbing in the full context.

Is there something else?

[_the road to hana]

Is there something else?

Joseph Smith marrying other men's wives?

Joseph Smith marrying a 14-year-old?

[_charity]

Is there something else?

Joseph Smith marrying other men's wives?

Joseph Smith marrying a 14-year-old?

Yep. I guess I had a very unorthdox missionary. He was an elderly man, a seventy, and his wife. I don't recall she said much, but he he was a wealth of information. He was 80ish in 1960. I guess he lived through most of the history. :)

[_the road to hana]

Is there something else?

Joseph Smith marrying other men's wives?

Joseph Smith marrying a 14-year-old?

Yep. I guess I had a very unorthdox missionary. He was an elderly man, a seventy, and his wife. I don't recall she said much, but he he was a wealth of information. He was 80ish in 1960. I guess he lived through most of the history. :)

I sincerely doubt you're telling the truth. I doubt you knew everything there was to know about the church at the age of 19 before converting, and I sincerely believe you learned things afterward that were surprising if not troubling.

[_charity]

I sincerely doubt you're telling the truth. I doubt you knew everything there was to know about the church at the age of 19 before converting, and I sincerely believe you learned things afterward that were surprising if not troubling.

You can call me a liar if you want. That is par for the course over here. If you hear something you don't like, save your precious little egos by calling the person a liar.

I already told you I didn't know everything. But I did know a lot of the particular issues so many people find troubling. We had lived in Utah when I was 2-4 years of age. I have only a few child memories of the place. My parents were not, and are still not, LDS. We lived across the street from an LDS family, of course, and the sister, an older woman befriended my mother, who was young and away from family. This woman was the daughter of a plural marriage and she said to my mother once that she would rather have half of a good man, than all of a bad one. My mother did not agree with plural marriage at all, but she had 3 sisters who were in very bad marriages, and I think she saw a little of the positives. So I grew up without the wide eyed shock factor over the plural marriage issue.

I learned of Joseph's polygamy in the context of sealings for some, plural marriage for some. I don't know if you would call my missionary an apologist, but he certainly knew a lot about polygamy in the history of the Church.

I was in the middle of the civil rights era. Of course, I knew about the blacks and the priesthood issue.

I know it is a favorite mantra of the anti-Mormon bunch, that the only reason some people are Mormons is because they don't know all the stuff you do, or at least didn't learn about it, until it was "too late." Sorry to burst your bubble. That argument doesn't fly with me, and I am not unique.