charity wrote:Exactly. It is all about faith. I have heard the idea expressed, (I don't know that I believe it, necessarily, however,) That there will never be archeological proof of the Book of Mormon discovered because then the book would not have to be taken on faith. And that is the whole point.
Some probably thought Jesus would never let Thomas feel the nail prints in his hands and feet, either.
Let's see, what is that scripture? "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
Something like that.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
Sethbag wrote:If it weren't for past generations of Mormons reproducing like bunny rabbits, there wouldn't even be 3 or 4 million active LDS today. Were it not for all those 10+ children families, this religion might well have dried out like a raisin 50 years ago. Even so, as the LDS birthrate drops closer in line with national averages, the growth rate of the church is stagnating, and retention rates are abysmal worldwide. It's all more of that wily Satan's doing, I suppose.
Thanks, now I've got that Saturday's Warrior song in my head... the one where the guys with the raspy, evil-sounding voices sing about zero population growth. Satanic influence indeed.
Sethbag wrote:Charity, the church has fallen over the non-truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, only you choose not to see it that way. You're one of the hangers-on. The 3 or 4 million LDS in the world are a very small, and not very significant niche. To almost everybody in the world, Mormonism is just one more fairly small religious sect. Your sort just chalks that up to the work of Satan, or accounts for it as the necessary "opposition" in all things, and the whole siege mentality kicks in to explain away and justify to your minds why it is that the whole world "just doesn't get it", ie: why the church has the truth and it seems almost nobody agrees.
The Church has not fallen. I know you wish that were true, but your wishful thinking does not make it so.
I like the way you dismiss people. "My sort."
It was never about converting the world. It has always been about gathering the Savior's "flock" out of the world.
Sethbag wrote:Charity, the church has fallen over the non-truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, only you choose not to see it that way. You're one of the hangers-on. The 3 or 4 million LDS in the world are a very small, and not very significant niche. To almost everybody in the world, Mormonism is just one more fairly small religious sect. Your sort just chalks that up to the work of Satan, or accounts for it as the necessary "opposition" in all things, and the whole siege mentality kicks in to explain away and justify to your minds why it is that the whole world "just doesn't get it", ie: why the church has the truth and it seems almost nobody agrees.
The Church has not fallen. I know you wish that were true, but your wishful thinking does not make it so.
I like the way you dismiss people. "My sort."
It was never about converting the world. It has always been about gathering the Savior's "flock" out of the world.
Gotta love the Mormon responses for everything: If the church grows fast, "see, the church must be true because it is growing so fast!" But if it declines, "It was never about converting the world. It has always been about gathering the Savior's "flock" out of the world."
How can a Mormon ever learn when they have a justification for every situation????
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
charity wrote:Exactly. It is all about faith. I have heard the idea expressed, (I don't know that I believe it, necessarily, however,) That there will never be archeological proof of the Book of Mormon discovered because then the book would not have to be taken on faith. And that is the whole point.
This life is a test. Remember that? Do you believe or do you not believe? I can't imagine the following testimony on fast day. "I know the Book of Mormon is true because Dr. Digalot has just found Zarahemla."
What's so noble, or great, or praiseworthy about accepting something on faith alone? And inversely, what's so wrong about accepting something because of cold, hard facts? I don't get it.
God wants us to demonstrate to ourselves that we are the kind of people who can handle the ultimate powers of godhood. That includes complete obedience. Just because He says so, has to be good enough for us. "Because I said so, oh, yes, and because there is archeological evidence" doesn't work.
What's wrong with cold, hard facts? They change. The cold,hard facts in 1750 aren't the cold hard facts of today. And won't be the cold, hard facts of 2150.
charity wrote:God wants us to demonstrate to ourselves that we are the kind of people who can handle the ultimate powers of godhood. That includes complete obedience. Just because He says so, has to be good enough for us. "Because I said so, oh, yes, and because there is archeological evidence" doesn't work.
That still doesn't make sense. I can tell my kid that if he touches the hot stove, he'll get burned (fact). But that doesn't mean he's going to listen. Smokers know that they have a chance of dieing if they continue to smoke (fact), but that doesn't mean everyone chooses not to smoke.
Just because we see proof of god's 'one true church' doesn't mean that we all 'obey' it, or that we have lost agency to believe in it.
Again, I don't see what's so great or 'godlike' about believing based on faith alone. How does that show that you can 'handle the ultimate powers of godhood'?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
charity wrote:So, in your world, Jesus should just show up right now, and convince us all. So why doesn't He?
Yes, if he's really there. He should show up, and give us the lowdown. (assuming Mormonism is true) he should say "the LDS church is the true church. now, here's what you need to do if you want to go to the cel. kingdom, here's what you should do if you want to go to the tel. kingdom, etc. And here's what it's like in each of those kingdoms.
Giving us all that information. is the only way we can all truly make a "choice".
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
charity wrote:Exactly. It is all about faith. I have heard the idea expressed, (I don't know that I believe it, necessarily, however,) That there will never be archeological proof of the Book of Mormon discovered because then the book would not have to be taken on faith. And that is the whole point.
This life is a test. Remember that? Do you believe or do you not believe? I can't imagine the following testimony on fast day. "I know the Book of Mormon is true because Dr. Digalot has just found Zarahemla."
What's so noble, or great, or praiseworthy about accepting something on faith alone? And inversely, what's so wrong about accepting something because of cold, hard facts? I don't get it.
God wants us to demonstrate to ourselves that we are the kind of people who can handle the ultimate powers of godhood. That includes complete obedience. Just because He says so, has to be good enough for us. "Because I said so, oh, yes, and because there is archeological evidence" doesn't work.
What's wrong with cold, hard facts? They change. The cold,hard facts in 1750 aren't the cold hard facts of today. And won't be the cold, hard facts of 2150.
No, they don't. We didn't know many of the facts about science, for example, in 1750, that we know today. No, we don't know everything today, but "the facts" don't change.
I've heard your argument ad nauseum about faith, and I'm sorry, but I really can't imagine a God that would require "faith" that conflicts with facts. What kind of a loving God is that???
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
charity wrote:God wants us to demonstrate to ourselves that we are the kind of people who can handle the ultimate powers of godhood. That includes complete obedience. Just because He says so, has to be good enough for us. "Because I said so, oh, yes, and because there is archeological evidence" doesn't work.
That still doesn't make sense. I can tell my kid that if he touches the hot stove, he'll get burned (fact). But that doesn't mean he's going to listen. Smokers know that they have a chance of dieing if they continue to smoke (fact), but that doesn't mean everyone chooses not to smoke.
Just because we see proof of god's 'one true church' doesn't mean that we all 'obey' it, or that we have lost agency to believe in it.
Again, I don't see what's so great or 'godlike' about believing based on faith alone. How does that show that you can 'handle the ultimate powers of godhood'?
Just like you can't really tell how well your teachingts have gone over with your kids if they only do what you want when you are standing over them, we have to show God we will do what He wants when we don't realize He is standing right over us.