President Monson, President Eyring, President Uchtdorf

[_amantha]

Charity said:

You will judged not on what you knew, but what you could have known if you had chosen to do so.

There is spiritual knowledge to be had which is just as real as objective knowledge. This knowledge can only be had through seeking a witness of the spirit AND then receiving that witness. If you are willing to pursue this knowledge you will eventually be guided to the very same process which was described by the prophet Moroni. This knowledge always comes to those who seek it out with real intent. Frequently, the receipt of this knowledge is timed to the particular needs of the individual. Since faith is a necessary attribute of the test of life, your faith may be tested as you strive to receive your personal witness. Whether you receive this witness or not is your responsibility.

The work of God is about developing a particular kind of human being. This human being is capable of tuning into God, remembers how to get back in tune when the inevitable vicissitudes of life cause a disconnect in the signal and, in general, relying on faith to reestablish this signal when strength is needed.

The ONLY WAY to know this is through the process of receiving a spiritual witness. If this idea calls to you in any way, this is the first faint signal of the spirit calling you to act upon this suggestion to get in touch. Then the signal will increase if you let it guide you. Inevitably you will be led to the prophet of the restoration, Joseph Smith and ultimately to Jesus Christ whom he serves.

It's a simple matter of choice.

[Sometimes I just like to see if I can remember the reasoning.]

[_charity]

No, I'm just saying that your conjecture that God isn't ever going to offer proof of the Book of Mormon for the reasons you stated is flawed based on scriptural precedent (if you believe the New Testament scripture, that is, which I assume you do).

Did you notice I said I didn't necessarily believe that? I just said I had heard that!

Hana, please read before you post. You keep doing this!

[_charity]

Charity said:

You will judged not on what you knew, but what you could have known if you had chosen to do so.

There is spiritual knowledge to be had which is just as real as objective knowledge. This knowledge can only be had through seeking a witness of the spirit AND then receiving that witness. If you are willing to pursue this knowledge you will eventually be guided to the very same process which was described by the prophet Moroni. This knowledge always comes to those who seek it out with real intent. Frequently, the receipt of this knowledge is timed to the particular needs of the individual. Since faith is a necessary attribute of the test of life, your faith may be tested as you strive to receive your personal witness. Whether you receive this witness or not is your responsibility.

The work of God is about developing a particular kind of human being. This human being is capable of tuning into God, remembers how to get back in tune when the inevitable vicissitudes of life cause a disconnect in the signal and, in general, relying on faith to reestablish this signal when strength is needed.

The ONLY WAY to know this is through the process of receiving a spiritual witness. If this idea calls to you in any way, this is the first faint signal of the spirit calling you to act upon this suggestion to get in touch. Then the signal will increase if you let it guide you. Inevitably you will be led to the prophet of the restoration, Joseph Smith and ultimately to Jesus Christ whom he serves.

It's a simple matter of choice.

[Sometimes I just like to see if I can remember the reasoning.]

You do remember. So you won't be able to claim ignorance. I would just make one small correction. We don't turn into "God." We are His sons and daughters who becomes gods. Small g.

[_personage]

Charity, I am not now a member but was for many years. And no, I don't now and never did understand everything there was to know about how the church operates. Furthermore, I am now much less likely to put a gloss on every situation as is your [apparently] only recourse.

What is there to put a gloss on here? President Packer stated very plainly at the funeral service for President Hinckley that the Lord's way has always been to chose the senior aposte (in terms of service, not in age) as the prophet. The history of the calls of men to the first presidency has indicated that neither seniority in service nor age is a factor in selecting the two members of the first presidency.

This is exaclty what happened. So where is the need to provide gloss?

So now I take it that the "no disagreement on doctrine" statement was pertaining strictly to the choosing of the new presidency? If that's the case, then I understand it better.

It doesn't have to have been. There is no disagreement on doctrine. I know critics and anti's try to stir the pot, and get very frustrated when their efforts are in vain.

Since people like Charity use the term "anti Mormon" for anyone who does not believe the church is true I guess we can refer to all LDS as "anti non Mormon".

[_the road to hana]

No, I'm just saying that your conjecture that God isn't ever going to offer proof of the Book of Mormon for the reasons you stated is flawed based on scriptural precedent (if you believe the New Testament scripture, that is, which I assume you do).

Did you notice I said I didn't necessarily believe that? I just said I had heard that!

Hana, please read before you post. You keep doing this!

Yes, Charity, I read before I post. Contrary to what you might think.

The key word there is "necessarily," isn't it? You don't "necessarily" believe it?

You can't believe it at all, if you believe in the New Testament. If you don't, then never mind, it's a moot point.

[_charity]

Again, what's so great about faith? What makes believing based on faith, better than believing based on facts? (charity - hint - if you don't know, or can't answer why, it's ok to say so...)

Faith is the power that runs everything. Faith is really something tangible. Paul called it "substance." Faith isn't just the mental attitude of believing in something. I don't know how it works, but faith can move mountains, physically. That is why it is so important to develop and practice and use faith.

"Facts" don't stack up against the power of God.

Believing based on faith lasts through storms and vicissitudes. Faith based on facts ( if there can be such a thing) is no stronger than a vapor.

[_moksha]

Faith based on facts ( if there can be such a thing) is no stronger than a vapor.

My assumption is that it would be stronger with reinforcement. However, faith can still be adequately strong without it.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Again, what's so great about faith? What makes believing based on faith, better than believing based on facts? (charity - hint - if you don't know, or can't answer why, it's ok to say so...)

Faith is the power that runs everything. Faith is really something tangible. Paul called it "substance." Faith isn't just the mental attitude of believing in something. I don't know how it works, but faith can move mountains, physically. That is why it is so important to develop and practice and use faith.

"Facts" don't stack up against the power of God.

Believing based on faith lasts through storms and vicissitudes. Faith based on facts ( if there can be such a thing) is no stronger than a vapor.

You really need help.

So then, let us examine a very critical FACT pointed out by the dead president.

Hinckley stated at the pulpit that the first vision either happened or it did not, and if it did not then the entire work that followed is FALSE.

Therefore, your faith is based on THAT FACT. Hinckley said so.

It is very easy to dismiss the first vision occurring as you and the dead president claim it factually happened.

You

[_SatanWasSetUp]

At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, Monson, Eyring, Uchtdorf has a nice Nazi-leadership ring to it. Not that I think these guys are nazis. Of all the big 15, those three seem pretty cool. It's just those names combined with the soon to be released presidency poster that all TBMs will hang prominently in their homes coninues to perpetuate the theory that Mormons worship a small group of white guys in Salt Lake. I know my opinion doesn't count, but it would be nice to see a black guy, or *gasp* a woman among the Big 15 leadership.

[_the road to hana]

"Facts" don't stack up against the power of God.

They shouldn't be incompatible.

Believing based on faith lasts through storms and vicissitudes. Faith based on facts ( if there can be such a thing) is no stronger than a vapor.

Again, assuming you believe in the New Testament, the person you believe to be Lord and Savior and God of this world put it this way:

"Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

According to the New Testament account, he showed himself to the apostles in the flesh three times after his resurrection, and came back to show himself to Thomas so he would not doubt. He says that those who do not have physical proof are blessed, but he does not suggest that those to whom he gave it are not blessed, or that their faith "is no stronger than a vapor." Were that the case, he would not have provided it.

Of course, in a situation like that, it's only really effective to the recipients of direct proof. Two thousand years hence, we can only rely on the word of others. And since Mormons believe an apostasy took place between then and now, I'd think they'd consider any account from then highly suspect, since those transmitting it would be untrustworthy.