Book of Ether Written by Moroni

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_charity
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Post by _charity »

Sethbag wrote:Hmm, let's see. We have a society that hasn't ever invented smelted iron or manufactured steel, and they have an ancient, mythical "golden age" story of a glorious past where men had weapons of iron and steel?

Does this actually make sense to anybody?


Gosh, I never heard of any society that had lesser technology than an earlier society. (Place the wide eyed, innocent looking smilie here.) Uh, wait. How about Britain, AFTER the Romans left? They didn't get back to central heating until early in the 20th century.

Oh, sethbag, were you being sarcastic and I missed it?
_charity
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Post by _charity »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
That's what I thought Ben was getting at, but maybe I'm misreading him.

As a sidenote, the biblical story of the Tower of Babel probably was not composed until some time during or after the Exile. True, it is based on the earlier Sumerian myth of Enmerkar. But the Sumerian myth has the various languages get united rather than the other way around. Making Ether mythical thus may problematic in its own way.

Not that it's more problematic than suggesting that there was a real Tower of Babel, of course.


Scott Lloyd made the following suggestion, but I guess you don't want to consider that.

"Did he merely edit? Or did he restate, recount, paraphrase? In other words, is the Book of Ether merely a condensed form of what was in Jeredite record, or does it constitute Moroni's retelling of the same?"
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

charity wrote:Gosh, I never heard of any society that had lesser technology than an earlier society. (Place the wide eyed, innocent looking smilie here.) Uh, wait. How about Britain, AFTER the Romans left? They didn't get back to central heating until early in the 20th century.

Oh, sethbag, were you being sarcastic and I missed it?


Except that wasn't the point. The statement suggested that later Nephites erroneously attributed steel smelting capabilities to the Jaredites as part of their mythology. Seth simply pointed out that since the Nephites did not have steel smelting capabilities either, it would seem strange for them to attribute a technology they'd never heard of before.
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_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Sethbag wrote:Does this actually make sense to anybody?


Yep...plenty of marginalized goofballs on the wasatch front take this information and make it make sense.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Runtu wrote:
charity wrote:Gosh, I never heard of any society that had lesser technology than an earlier society. (Place the wide eyed, innocent looking smilie here.) Uh, wait. How about Britain, AFTER the Romans left? They didn't get back to central heating until early in the 20th century.

Oh, sethbag, were you being sarcastic and I missed it?


Except that wasn't the point. The statement suggested that later Nephites erroneously attributed steel smelting capabilities to the Jaredites as part of their mythology. Seth simply pointed out that since the Nephites did not have steel smelting capabilities either, it would seem strange for them to attribute a technology they'd never heard of before.


I think many societies which have lost technological capabilities notice there is something they aren't able to do any more. YOu think the less capable Brits didn't notice the ruins of buildings they could not longer construct?
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Post by _beastie »

I think many societies which have lost technological capabilities notice there is something they aren't able to do any more. YOu think the less capable Brits didn't notice the ruins of buildings they could not longer construct?


For heaven's sake, charity, the Jaredite text told them what to do. Besides, Nephi already knew how to smelt.
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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

charity wrote:I think many societies which have lost technological capabilities notice there is something they aren't able to do any more. YOu think the less capable Brits didn't notice the ruins of buildings they could not longer construct?


You've missed my point twice, now. The point of the "mythical steel smelters" is that the Jaredites never had that technology. It was falsely attributed, apparently, by the Nephite redactors of the Book of Ether. Your analogy would work if the Romans hadn't actually built anything but the Brits thought they did.
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_DonBradley
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Post by _DonBradley »

Brant Gardner and Ben McQuire both take the view that the Book of Mormon is ancient but, to a substantial degree, nonhistorical. They argue, accurately, that genuine ancient "histories" tend to be largely mythical. I think to a certain extent it works to apply this perspective to the Book of Mormon, but it is not withiout its problems. First, the division of the nonhistorical ancient text from the historical can function as a facile apologetic device--the nonhistorical--but still ancient--parts have a strong tendency to overlap with the parts that make the book look like pure fiction (e.g., oversized populations, ommitted native peoples, ...). Second, the book's self-reported manner of composition does not always dovetail with the view that it is ancient but inaccurate. Unlike ancient "histories" generally, the Book of Mormon is comprised of a series of interlocking, mutually supporting records, some of which are first person records, and the remainder of which are generally based on contemporaneous chronicles. Indeed, the book claims to be largely a mere abridgment of these chronicles.

In any case, Brant and Ben see an ancient but significantly nonhistorical text as a completely different kind of thing from a modern nonhistorical text; but what makes it so different? If the Book of Mormon doesn't tell us the origin of the Native Americans, doesn't tell us that they are descendants of Israel in any greater (or even equivalent) sense than that in which the European peoples are, doesn't give us a narrative that can be regarded as "historical" in our sense of the term, then why on earth would it need to be ancient in order to fill its reported divinely appointed function? If what matters isn't its historical accuracy or its identification of the Indians as Israelites, but rather its teachings, then why wouldn't a modern Book of Mormon with equally true and inspired teachings achieve its ordained purpose just as well?

Don
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

DonBradley wrote:Brant Gardner and Ben McQuire both take the view that the Book of Mormon is ancient but, to a substantial degree, nonhistorical. They argue, accurately, that genuine ancient "histories" tend to be largely mythical. I think to a certain extent it works to apply this perspective to the Book of Mormon, but it is not withiout its problems. First, the division of the nonhistorical ancient text from the historical can function as a facile apologetic device--the nonhistorical--but still ancient--parts have a strong tendency to overlap with the parts that make the book look like pure fiction (e.g., oversized populations, ommitted native peoples, ...). Second, the book's self-reported manner of composition does not always dovetail with the view that it is ancient but inaccurate. Unlike ancient "histories" generally, the Book of Mormon is comprised of a series of interlocking, mutually supporting records, some of which are first person records, and the remainder of which are generally based on contemporaneous chronicles. Indeed, the book claims to be largely a mere abridgment of these chronicles.

In any case, Brant and Ben see an ancient but significantly nonhistorical text as a completely different kind of thing from a modern nonhistorical text; but what makes it so different? If the Book of Mormon doesn't tell us the origin of the Native Americans, doesn't tell us that they are descendants of Israel in any greater (or even equivalent) sense than that in which the European peoples are, doesn't give us a narrative that can be regarded as "historical" in our sense of the term, then why on earth would it need to be ancient in order to fill its reported divinely appointed function? If what matters isn't its historical accuracy or its identification of the Indians as Israelites, but rather its teachings, then why wouldn't a modern Book of Mormon with equally true and inspired teachings achieve its ordained purpose just as well?

Don


That's pretty much how I see it. Whether it's a modern or ancient "expansion," the end result is to detach the text from any claim to represent reality. When you do that, you have effectively removed the text from the knowable to the realm of what charity describes as "religious truth."

It just seems to me that the approach is one of convenience: if there are place and person names, Hebraisms, and parallels to the ancient world, it's evidence of the book's truth; if there are anachronisms or problematic areas of the text, they are expansions, whether modern or ancient.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

DonBradley wrote:Brant Gardner and Ben McQuire both take the view that the Book of Mormon is ancient but, to a substantial degree, nonhistorical. They argue, accurately, that genuine ancient "histories" tend to be largely mythical. I think to a certain extent it works to apply this perspective to the Book of Mormon, but it is not withiout its problems. First, the division of the nonhistorical ancient text from the historical can function as a facile apologetic device--the nonhistorical--but still ancient--parts have a strong tendency to overlap with the parts that make the book look like pure fiction (e.g., oversized populations, ommitted native peoples, ...). Second, the book's self-reported manner of composition does not always dovetail with the view that it is ancient but inaccurate. Unlike ancient "histories" generally, the Book of Mormon is comprised of a series of interlocking, mutually supporting records, some of which are first person records, and the remainder of which are generally based on contemporaneous chronicles. Indeed, the book claims to be largely a mere abridgment of these chronicles.

In any case, Brant and Ben see an ancient but significantly nonhistorical text as a completely different kind of thing from a modern nonhistorical text; but what makes it so different? If the Book of Mormon doesn't tell us the origin of the Native Americans, doesn't tell us that they are descendants of Israel in any greater (or even equivalent) sense than that in which the European peoples are, doesn't give us a narrative that can be regarded as "historical" in our sense of the term, then why on earth would it need to be ancient in order to fill its reported divinely appointed function? If what matters isn't its historical accuracy or its identification of the Indians as Israelites, but rather its teachings, then why wouldn't a modern Book of Mormon with equally true and inspired teachings achieve its ordained purpose just as well?

Don


I don't see the difference either. But then, my opinion doesn't matter because I'm just a Gentile. In a... totally... inspiredly-fictional sort of way.
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