Black men and the Pre-Existence

[_truth dancer]

Liz,

You may be interested in the following 1964 letter from Delbert Stapley to George Romney.

http://www.boston.com/news/daily/24/delbert_stapley.pdf

I think it demonstrates what the church taught.

~dancer~

I actually have the book to which Stapley refers... Mormonism and the Negro, along with a few others from the time.

[_Jason Bourne]

Absolutely I was taught this... as truth revealed to God's prophet. I still have a few books written by LDS authors explaining the teaching/doctrine.

I was raised in a family that did not hold to racists ideas hence could not ever believe such a thing.

I was taught that the reason I could not embrace this teaching was because I was too hard hearted, or not humble enough to have God confirm the truth of it. You know... "God's ways are not man's ways." And, "The truth will be confirmed AFTER the trial of your faith," etc. etc. etc.

It caused much distress for me during my believing days when this teaching was considered doctrine/truth.

Funny how prophets think they are inspired....


~dancer~

Lowell Bennion had issues with this as well and so stated. It seems one of the reasons why he was fired as an institute teacher.

[_RAJ]

Liz,

You may be interested in the following 1964 letter from Delbert Stapley to George Romney.

http://www.boston.com/news/daily/24/delbert_stapley.pdf

I think it demonstrates what the church taught.

~dancer~

I actually have the book to which Stapley refers... Mormonism and the Negro, along with a few others from the time.

The letter is appalling and sickening. And I note that the author actually believes himself not to be a bigot.


"Now, don't think I am against the Negro people, because I have several in my employ."
From the letter - Delbert L. Stapley

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi RAJ,

So do faithful members still believe some version of this? That is, your particular circumstance / disability / challenge, etc... is correlated in some way to your behavior in "the pre-existence."

I have never heard any prophet or leader of the church suggest that the above teaching was/is erroneous.

Leaders may say "it is in the past", or we do not have to abide by those teachings, or God has seen fit to release the ban, etc. etc. but I have yet to hear even one leader suggest it was not truth.

My observation is that most apologists will support the teaching, and dismiss it as something in the past but few would suggest the prophets got it wrong.

~dancer~

McConkie certainly said that they were wrong.

[_Mercury]

Boaz made this comment on the Obama thread, and I felt it was worth exploring a little more:

Black men were not valiant in the pre-existence..

First of all, this was something I had never heard of until many years later when I read Brigham Young's comments concerning this in the Journal of Discourses.

I personally do not know of any members who believe this, and I have some very prominent members of the Church in my family.

For the "faithful few" here, have you ever believed this, and if/when you read about this, what were your thoughts?

Former members, I'm also interested in your view.

I learned this racist doctrine when I was a teenager in the mid nineties. later it was reinforced unofficially through the usual crosstalk between missionaries during bull sessions.

"Fence sitters" is the language prevalent in the meme used to describe the state of those in the pre existence who were born without white and delightsome skin.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Boaz made this comment on the Obama thread, and I felt it was worth exploring a little more:

Black men were not valiant in the pre-existence..

First of all, this was something I had never heard of until many years later when I read Brigham Young's comments concerning this in the Journal of Discourses.

I personally do not know of any members who believe this, and I have some very prominent members of the Church in my family.

For the "faithful few" here, have you ever believed this, and if/when you read about this, what were your thoughts?

Former members, I'm also interested in your view.

I attended seminary for about 6 months. One day the seminary teacher approached me and asked what was keeping me from getting baptized. I named the priesthood ban and leaders' racist comments as a major issue for me. She apparently went home and googled it, then approached me again the next day. "I can see how if those things are really true, it would bother you," she said. I said, "They are true. I have a copy of the Journal of Discourses, and I've looked those quotes up myself." There was an awkward pause. Then I added, "Bruce R. McConkie thought that people with black skin were less valiant in the pre-existence." I meant it to be a derisive comment, but apparently in my desire not to offend I was too subtle. Her eyes lit up. "Yeah, that's kind of how I think of it too!" I was dumbfounded. I had accidentally turned my seminary teacher into a racist. I didn't go back to seminary after that.

Sometimes, revealing the disturbing truth about the Church's past can actually be counterproductive.

[_The Nehor]

I read it while digging through old LDS books as a teenager. I never heard it in Church until I was on my Mission.

I know a few things about myself that were molded due to failings in the Premortal Worlds. In that sense I was less valiant. There are those who were more and those that were less valiant than me.

Whether skin color figures in at all, I don't know. To be blunt, I don't want to know. We have enough social, racial, and cultural classes dividing society without needing to add a group of indicators to a Premortal class.

[_truth dancer]

McConkie certainly said that they were wrong.

Jason, If I recall correctly, BRM did not say they were wrong. He said something like, "forget what I said."

Do you have the quote?

My observation is that there are a lot of folks who still believe in this doctrine... I'm guessing a few on this board? ;-)

~dancer~

[_KimberlyAnn]

I read it while digging through old LDS books as a teenager. I never heard it in Church until I was on my Mission.

I know a few things about myself that were molded due to failings in the Premortal Worlds. In that sense I was less valiant. There are those who were more and those that were less valiant than me.

Whether skin color figures in at all, I don't know. To be blunt, I don't want to know. We have enough social, racial, and cultural classes dividing society without needing to add a group of indicators to a Premortal class.

So, you're telling me you KNOW there is such a thing as a pre-mortal world, but you don't KNOW what your church leaders have plainly stated regarding the curse of black skin?

You believe them when they tell you pre-mortal worlds exist, but you don't believe them when they plainly state that spirits who were less valiant in that pre-existence are sent to earth with black skin?

Funny, you have issues with creating racial divides, but your inspired Mormon prophets don't.

KA

[_Dr. Shades]

I read it while digging through old LDS books as a teenager. I never heard it in Church until I was on my Mission.

In that case, I'll ask you what I asked Liz: What, in your mind, was the reason black people were denied the priesthood 'till 1978?