Black men and the Pre-Existence

[_charity]

Liz,

You may be interested in the following 1964 letter from Delbert Stapley to George Romney.

http://www.boston.com/news/daily/24/delbert_stapley.pdf

I think it demonstrates what the church taught.

~dancer~

I actually have the book to which Stapley refers... Mormonism and the Negro, along with a few others from the time.

And I just looked up the reference in "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" that Elder Stapely referred to. For those of you who won't be looking it up, let me quote it here.

"Elder Hyde inquired to the situation of the Negro. I resplied, they ceme into the world slaves mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cinncinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washingotn are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine off many of those they brush and wait on. "

When I joined the Church in 1960, there was quite a bit of contention over this issue. I very distinctly was taught that while many members might have the opinion that blacks had been less valient in the pre-existence, this was definitately not true. Every mortal had fought valiently on God's side in the pre-mortal existence.

[_truth dancer]

When I joined the Church in 1960, there was quite a bit of contention over this issue. I very distinctly was taught that while many members might have the opinion that blacks had been less valient in the pre-existence, this was definitately not true. Every mortal had fought valiently on God's side in the pre-mortal existence.

CFR!

Did you read the letter I linked?

I would like to read even one statement from an apostle or prophet stating this doctrine (reason for the ban), is not actually true; one statement that clearly states this teaching was incorrect; one statement stating the previous prophets were incorrect.

Charity, do you or do you not believe the ban was of God? If so, why do you think it existed? Were the prophets wrong about fence sitters or the less valiant coming to earth with dark skin?

~dancer~

Remembering that the ban is still in place for women!

[_Brackite]

Boaz made this comment on the Obama thread, and I felt it was worth exploring a little more:

Black men were not valiant in the pre-existence..

First of all, this was something I had never heard of until many years later when I read Brigham Young's comments concerning this in the Journal of Discourses.

I personally do not know of any members who believe this, and I have some very prominent members of the Church in my family.

For the "faithful few" here, have you ever believed this, and if/when you read about this, what were your thoughts?

Former members, I'm also interested in your view.

Hello There Liz.,

Yes, I was taught this LD Church Doctrine, when I went to Seminary during the 1980's. The Following is from an 'Official Statement,' issued from the First Presidency on August 17, 1951, which reads as:

"The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the pre-mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality, and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the principle itself indicates that the coming to this earth and taking on mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintained their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the
handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes....."

[_CaliforniaKid]

whoa... I didn't realize there was an "official statement" that spelled it out quite that explicitly!

[_BishopRic]

Thanks for the link, TD. Of course it is what was taught to us Utah Mormons in the 60s and 70s. A simple google search gives quite a few more statements that ring true with my upbringing in the church too:

http://www.exmormon.org/blacks1.htm

I also remember my mish prez's response to the question that was asked during the mission conference when the "revelation" changed the policy..."so what does this mean about the blacks that are born now? Were they more valiant in the pre-existence than the previous blacks?"

He answered yes. So HIS belief was that there was a difference in the pre-existence "valiantness" of the blacks before the revelation, and those born after.

Hmmmm. Alrighty then.

[_truth dancer]

"Elder Hyde inquired to the situation of the Negro. I resplied, they ceme into the world slaves mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cinncinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washingotn are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine off many of those they brush and wait on. "

I do not see how this has anything whatsoever to do with Liz's question, the ban, or premortal existence.

~dancer~

[_charity]

CFR! [/qipte]

Here it is. There is a statement by President Kimball.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Blacks_and_the ... ated_ideas

I would like to read even one statement from an apostle or prophet stating this doctrine (reason for the ban), is not actually true; one statement that clearly states this teaching was incorrect; one statement stating the previous prophets were incorrect.

Read the link I provided. All your questions will be answered there.

Charity, do you or do you not believe the ban was of God? If so, why do you think it existed? Were the prophets wrong about fence sitters or the less valiant coming to earth with dark skin?

I believe what is elucidated in the link. I also believe what a black member of the Church said at the FAIR conference last summer. He said he didn't know what the reason was either, but he considered it a fair test, not just of blacks, but for whites. I truly believe that. Anyone who would think they were better than another person based on race, has a lot of repenting to do.

~dancer~

Remembering that the ban is still in place for women!

It is not a priesthood ban. Do you think there is a ban for men in bearing children?

[_Mercury]

"The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the pre-mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality, and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the principle itself indicates that the coming to this earth and taking on mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintained their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the
handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes....."

This is Institutionalized racism, no doubt. For Charity and the other blind feebs, keep in mind that this statement is still subject to valid criticism of the church since it came as an official statement from the church.

[_skippy the dead]

Here it is. There is a statement by President Kimball.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Blacks_and_the ... ated_ideas

You mean the "quote" that is described thusly: "Ostling told President Kimball's biographer and son that this was a paraphrase, but an accurate reporting of what he had been told." Not much of a quote. And why did Kimball not make this statement publicly to the church body rather than through a paraphrase given in an interview? Seems like an unfortunate (and incredibly inadequate) way to try to counter generations of institutionalized marginalization of an entire race.

I believe what is elucidated in the link. I also believe what a black member of the Church said at the FAIR conference last summer. He said he didn't know what the reason was either, but he considered it a fair test, not just of blacks, but for whites. I truly believe that. Anyone who would think they were better than another person based on race, has a lot of repenting to do.

And here we have membership coming up with new theories yet again, thus continuing the cycle. Plus, what kind of God would penalize a group of people to provide a test to others?

Remembering that the ban is still in place for women!

It is not a priesthood ban. Do you think there is a ban for men in bearing children?

Seriously? You can do better than this. By your reasoning, if a woman cannot bear children, she should receive the priesthood.

[_charity]

First Presidency on August 17, 1951, which reads as:

"The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the pre-mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality, and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the principle itself indicates that the coming to this earth and taking on mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintained their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the
handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes....."

[/quote]


That date was from 1951. This statement was from President Kimball in 1978.

President Kimball "flatly [stated] that Mormonism no longer holds to...a theory" that Blacks had been denied the priesthood "because they somehow failed God during their pre-existence."

Kimball, Lengthen Your Stride, chapter 24, page 3; citing Richard Ostling, "Mormonism Enters a New Era," Time (7 August 1978): 55. Ostling told President Kimball's biographer and son that this was a paraphrase, but an accurate reporting of what he had been told (see footnote 13, citing interview on 10 May 2001).

Just a note here, we have continuing revelation. So 1978 Trump's 1951.