The unbelieving Fifth Column

[Guest]

I go to church every Sunday for my spouse. I only go to Sacrament and then I leave. My spouse is totally okay with it and it works well for me too. I don't take the sacrament. I have no callings. I don't pay tithing although my spouse does. I would prefer for my spouse and children to spend time with me doing charitable works on Sunday or camping or something else, but I am quite content with the way things are.

That being said, I will admit that I enjoy being the pea in the princess' bed from time to time. People do wonder why I don't believe, but talking about it wouldn't dissuade anyone from the faith, unless they were already doubting. I do think my presence might make some people ask themselves questions, that they might not otherwise, because I am a happy, smiling individual who is a good parent and partner.

I do look around the room during the prayers and I notice that there are a few people who look around just as I do. I often wonder if these people are closet disbelievers. I have never asked them of course. I also never raise my hand to sustain but I always raise my hand to thank people for their service. I think people notice these things over time.

If I were one who wanted to lead people away from the church, I don't think there would be a better strategy than what I am doing now--simply attending happily whilst choosing not to participate in the ways I don't want to. If people want to question, they will do so on their own. Arguing about the falsehoods of the church, at church, would only lead people to bury their heads deeper into their testimonies.

[_Yoda]

Beastie, I am sure that there are people who attend Church, pretend they are still believers, for family reasons.

But I don't know how a person who says they can't stand the "fact" that there are lies, etc. in the Church can live a lie themselves.

Do you deny that some of those who express their hatred of the Church on this board who are still attending aren't trying to sink the Church surreptitiously?

If you're referring to PP(Boaz), Merc, and Infymus, none of them attend Church on a regular basis. PP doesn't attend at all. I believe that Merc and Infymus occasionally attend Church for extended family functions.

[_beastie]

Beastie, I am sure that there are people who attend Church, pretend they are still believers, for family reasons.

But I don't know how a person who says they can't stand the "fact" that there are lies, etc. in the Church can live a lie themselves.

Do you deny that some of those who express their hatred of the Church on this board who are still attending aren't trying to sink the Church surreptitiously?

They keep attending so their TBM spouse will not divorce them and try to reduce their contact with their children.

I do not know of a single closet nonbeliever who attends for ANY reason other than that one.

I have no idea if some people are surreptitiously trying "sink" the church, but I can't see how their "work" would be any different, qualitatively, than many of the post modern defenders of the faith.

It's probably true that some people who are FORCED to continue attending church by manipulative TBM spouses are so angry about it that they take some pleasure in planting seeds of doubt in others. Whether or not this constitutes trying to "sink" the church is highly debatable.

[_the road to hana]

Beastie, I am sure that there are people who attend Church, pretend they are still believers, for family reasons.

But I don't know how a person who says they can't stand the "fact" that there are lies, etc. in the Church can live a lie themselves.

Do you deny that some of those who express their hatred of the Church on this board who are still attending aren't trying to sink the Church surreptitiously?

Are you talking to Beastie, or me?

If you're talking to me, I take issue with the "pretend they are still believers" part.

I don't pretend to be anything. When I attend as a visitor out of town, I am there as a guest.

When I attend locally, I am there as a guest, and most people in that ward are aware I am no longer a member.

There might be people who've left the church who'd be perfectly happy to see it implode, but they don't generally go in as suicide bombers.

[_Mister Scratch]

Will Schryver posted his rather passionate belief that those of us who don't believe in the church, but who attend for whatever reason, constitute a hidden enemy:

Indeed, I am convinced that many of them continue to lurk in the foyers of our chapels and on the back rows of Priesthood and Relief Society meetings with the express purpose of working from within to sow seeds of doubt; a fifth column dedicated to eroding faith and testimony in as subtle a fashion as possible.

This is very interesting. Thank you for posting this, Runtu. On the one hand, this smacks of very disturbing, Stasi-like tactics. Will is really just showing how much doubt, suspicion, and paranoia run rampant in LDS culture. Sure, he would like to "out" all of these people, but how would he feel if his various online antics got passed along to his SP? I would imagine that he is browning his drawers at the thought of it. Indeed, there are any number of TBMs who are utterly terrified at having their "sins" exposed to the SP, or whomever else. The process of repentance in Mormonism is so painful and humiliating that many TBMs (men in particular) will behave in all sort of dishonest and unethical ways to avoid having to own up. Will's comments are merely symptomatic of a larger problem. While they are at it, they can go ahead and boot out homosexuals, feminists, and intellectuals.

Regardless, the real, more pressing threat to the Church is not "The Fifth Column"; rather, it is the easy access to information on Mormonism's checkered and disquieting past. Other Mopologists, such as DCP, Greg Smith, and Alan Wyatt, have figured out that this is a horrible tide which must be checked, hence their efforts with the More Good Foundation, and cybersquatting, and whatever else.

Our goal is to get one of us placed as a General Authority. Then we can really wreak some havoc.

Who's to say this hasn't already been accomplished? <wink wink> Didn't you get that last memo, Runtu? by the way, I expect to have the latest draft of my GC talk typed and on my desk by Monday.

[_Dr. Shades]

Just how, exactly, is Will planning on finding out who these people are?

They've remained safely hidden from him so far. What makes him think he'll magically become able to smoke them out?

[_Gadianton]

I agree partially with Will. I think there are some people who don't believe the church is true, who attend church, and who like to cause doubt. I think almost always they go for family or other practical reasons, and it's very few seldom that one is thoroughly commited to church attendance just to sow seeds of doubt and contention. Of course, there is no planning and connectivity between these few and Will knows that, he's just going for shock value which I can respect.

I have the utmost respect for those dedicated enough to attend church just for the purpose of bringing it to its knees, and if they are ever successful, I'll find it extremely funny. Mormons really shouldn't have a problem with it. Afterall, their current campaign strategy of the last many years has been to create misleading propoganda and "setup" missionary discussions where they "build on common beliefs", the victims not having a clue what they're really in for, doctrinally, but begin to base their trust on supposed "fellow Christian" status. In reality, the missionaries and others will be laughing behind the scenes at the stupidity of the "Jesus freak" happy-clappy born agains and the stupidity of the Trinity, but in their homes, just as the veiled apostate feigns a deep appreciation for the truth of the church on some level, missionaries and others will pretend to share a common love of the Bible, Jesus, and his grace.

[_krose]

I remember a rumor going around, about 35 years ago, to the effect that a great purge was coming. Only those with real testimonies, who lived 'the gospel' to the letter, would be allowed to keep their memberships. Everyone else would be cut off. (It seemed realistic to me then, because around this same time they instituted worthiness interviews for seminary graduation, to make sure no one who touched himself could graduate.)

That kind of purge sounds like something a few people would really get behind.

[Guest]

I agree partially with Will. I think there are some people who don't believe the church is true, who attend church, and who like to cause doubt. I think almost always they go for family or other practical reasons, and it's very few seldom that one is thoroughly commited to church attendance just to sow seeds of doubt and contention. Of course, there is no planning and connectivity between these few and Will knows that, he's just going for shock value which I can respect.

I have the utmost respect for those dedicated enough to attend church just for the purpose of bringing it to its knees, and if they are ever successful, I'll find it extremely funny. Mormons really shouldn't have a problem with it. Afterall, their current campaign strategy of the last many years has been to create misleading propoganda and "setup" missionary discussions where they "build on common beliefs", the victims not having a clue what they're really in for, doctrinally, but begin to base their trust on supposed "fellow Christian" status. In reality, the missionaries and others will be laughing behind the scenes at the stupidity of the "Jesus freak" happy-clappy born agains and the stupidity of the Trinity, but in their homes, just as the veiled apostate feigns a deep appreciation for the truth of the church on some level, missionaries and others will pretend to share a common love of the Bible, Jesus, and his grace.

Thank you, Gad, for being so intelligent!

What an apt comparison. If there were apostates in sheep's clothing, attending church with the intent to destroy testimonies from the inside, they would be no less duplicitous than Mormons who outwardly profess to be Christian like everyone else, while inwardly and privately among themselves demeaning the tenants held by traditional Christians.

When I was a girl, the Mormons I knew in my little hometown in the Bible Belt outwardly told Methodist and Baptist friends and neighbors that Mormons were Christian, too--as Christian as anyone else. In fact, they said Mormonism was almost just like Methodism. Methodism was good, they said, like ice-cream with chocolate syrup, but Mormonism was like that same ice-cream with whipped cream and a cherry on top! Mormons only added to the good that other religions already taught, they said. But, privately, on temple trips, inside rooms that look like hotel lobbies, those same Mormons engaged in the outright mockery of Protestant ministers, portraying them as being paid by Satan to teach falsehoods!

Thanks again, Gad, for pointing out Mormon hypocrisy.

KA

[_charity]

I went back and read the MA&D thread. I think there are several different categories.

I'm all for honesty. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THE CHURCH IS TRUE, I have no problem with you continuing to attend meetings on the following conditions:

Don't lie to the bishop to get a temple recommend.
Don't hold any callings where youth or children are in the stewardship or where teaching if part of the duties.
Don't take the sacrament, even if everone looks at you.
Don't speak out against any doctrine or teaching which is a part of Church doctrine or teachings inside any Church building.

If your whole purpose is to surreptitiously damage the Church, and Will can find you, you deserve to be ex-ed.

You sound like a mother talking to her children, Charity.

Most exmos who attend don't go in for bishop's interviews, for obvious reasons.

Most exmos who attend don't hold callings, for obvious reasons.

Most exmos who attend don't take the sacrament, but if they do, it's unlikely it's any more problematic than a toddler doing it.

Most exmos who attend don't preach against Mormonism within its walls, again, for obvious reasons.

Now, there's an entirely different category here which includes current members. Those are not the same as exmos. You might think they're the same; they're not.

Exmos are people who got divorced. Current members are those struggling to keep their marriages together.

When I attend LDS meetings, as I have done off-and-on periodically from the time I left the church, it has always been to support family. A baby blessing, a baptism, visiting relatives, or them visiting me, or attending with family otherwise.

I do not go there to destroy anything, anymore than I would go into someone else's home as a guest to destroy their home.

I haven't taken the sacrament there for years, for my own reasons, but I doubt if I did anyone would think anything about it, except me.

I can't even imagine being in a situation where I'd be called in by a bishop or given a calling. They know I'm not a member. Period. When I'm visiting out of town, it's a moot point.

I have visited classes, and even participated when asked. It has never been divisive or confrontational.

You have some strange notions about what people are like in real life. Most exmos have no desire to be inside an LDS Church unless they have to, and generally, there are situations if they have family members who are still Mormon that bring them there.

They don't walk up to the stand on Fast Sunday to bear their anti-testimony. They're more likely sitting quietly in the congregation, looking pretty unobtrusive.

Will was talking about those who are only ex-mo's in their hearts. On the outside, they are still active members. Attending Church , etc. That is the group I was referring to, of course. Don't be so paranoid.