Unrestricted Participation and Worthwhile Discussion

[_Dr. Shades]

Oh man, where to begin?

It would literally take me all day to respond to all the points I'd like to respond to. Let me just make a couple of points:

• Yes, threads which are started with the entire intent to make a personal attack are moved to the Telestial Forum. If you believe otherwise--such as in the case of Coggins7's parody songs--then you aren't paying attention. If you see the "Moved: ____" tag before a thread title, then it indeed has been moved.
• People have complained that we moderators are a little more "lax" than they'd prefer. Unfortunately, you're right, but not for the reasons you think: We moderators would indeed like to stick to our guns a little more closely, such as splitting every (obvious) off-topic derailment into its own thread and moving every post with temple content into the Telestial Forum, etc., but we get worn out. Our guidelines get ignored by y'all so often that we simply don't have the energy to keep up.
• If there is something about this board that you don't like, THEN DON'T YOU DO THAT THING. Have you all been listening to yourselves in this thread? I've repeatedly read things like, "I really don't like it when people make personal attacks, but often I get so mad that I do the same thing" and "I hate it when a thread gets derailed, but I've been guilty of it myself quite often." WTF?? IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT WHEN OTHERS DO IT, THEN DON'T DO IT YOURSELF!! If you do, then you thereby forfeit your right to complain when others do the same thing you do.
• Remember, if others are granted a little too much freedom for your tastes, then consider them like the proverbial canary in the mine: Your freedoms are that much safer.

I'll be starting another thread with a poll to get a handle on just how serious this situation really is, and posting some suggestions on how to improve the board (if the status quo really is unsatisfactory).

[_Yoda]

(Yes, I'm in a foul mood. I've had sick kids and haven't slept in two days. Sorry, guys. *sigh*)

I extend my sympathy ("retired" father of 28 years of child raising, and too many sleepless night to count. You never really "retire". But God I love them! Sorry for more off-topic. LOL.)

*HUGS*

Thanks, Ray!

;)

[_Gadianton]

I'd just like to say that I'm perfectly happy with the way the board is, moderation wise.

[_Blixa]

Beastie,

The ignore function would be an excellent addition.

Don

Yes, it’s always good to close your eyes to what you don’t want to see. The ostrich approach to discussion.

As for your comments previously directed toward JAK, he asked you a series of questions. You didn’t like the questions and attempted personal attack rather than any address of the questions.

I’m skeptical that you are capable of free, frank, open discussion of issues. You raised some issues at the beginning of the thread which I addressed primarily with questions.

(etc. etc., rest of nested quote snipped)

JAK

Later commentary by myself, Skippy and possibly others has elucidated the OP, JAK. I'm not sure why you don't find some answers there to respond to. Also, I responded to your question about why I don't address all of christianity with my criticisms. No reply. I don't mind---I just think its odd you complain about people not answering your posts and then you don't seemingly don't see the answers that do exist.

I also read your initial post as an ad hominem attack amounting to: "if you don't like it leave." If that's not what was meant, you could have explained that earlier.

And look, comments like

Yes, it’s always good to close your eyes to what you don’t want to see. The ostrich approach to discussion.

come off as snide, personal jibes.

I don't need to respond to poorly written, barely coherent late-80's New Right-speak. I don't need to respond to unfunny "satire" that doesn't scan. I don't need to respond to vicious and condescending attempts to damn posters to hell. I don't need to respond to know-nothing smears of historians and scholars. I don't need to respond to cackles that I'll know better after I'm dead. I don't need to respond to posts where people assert a historical knowledge that every single thing they write gives the lie to....etc. So I've given up reading the work of those posters who have done little else in the (nearly) year I've been here.

This is hardly a head in the sand approach of avoiding that which I'm afraid of or can't deal with intellectually.

My comments on this thread have described a set of problems which may in part be a by-product of the moderation here or may be endemic to trying to discuss Mormonism at all. Whether or not a perfect forum or discussion could ever exist doesn't mean one can't try to describe existing problems and speculate on what might ameliorate them.

[_marg]

Mormon Discussions was, of course, set up by my friend Dr. Shades as a place where anyone can have their say without censorship, such as that imposed by the "FAIR"/MAD mods. But it's not clear to me that such an approach leads to better discussion, rather than a greater ability to say things not worth either saying or reading.

The trouble with the censorship at FAIR/MAD is that isn't fair at all--it's ideologically biased. But this difficulty could be removed by moderating for substance rather than for ideology. The MAD mods throw out insubstantive and noxious posters--in theory. In practice, it is generally only insubstantive and noxious posters (and sometimes substantive posters) of a "critical" bent who get the boot. A board evenhandedly moderated for substance would be a much better place to talk, and would tend to promote much better discussions.

I suppose MDB has such a place--the Celestial Forum. But the Terrestrial Forum itself could be a much better place to talk if such things as purposeful baiting of other posters were excluded, and those posting such things were banished from it until they could show that they were worthy of progression from kingdom to kingdom. ;-)

Besides, the Celestial Forum is hardly used. Everyone knows that posting in the Celestial Forum is good way to make sure your thread is widely ignored. so everyone posts in the Terrestrial Forum, further ensuring that no one will even bother checking the Celestial Forum for new threads or new posts....

Don

I'm sorry I haven't read the entire thread so perhaps someone has mentioned this, Don. I find that threaded view formats tend to decrease posters who post simply for attention. With a threaded format the participants can self police. If one or more participants are not worthwhile reading, their posts can be ignored. If a poster writes and their posts are ignored, they have nothing to continue responding to. It's not a perfect system, there are always people who will be disruptive, but it is a far superior system than this flat view only format.

[_Moniker]

Oh man, where to begin?

It would literally take me all day to respond to all the points I'd like to respond to. Let me just make a couple of points:[list][*]Yes, threads which are started with the entire intent to make a personal attack are moved to the Telestial Forum. If you believe otherwise--such as in the case of Coggins7's parody songs--then you aren't paying attention.

I may pay more attention than you (which is terrifying)? I know "Liz is a rat fink" stayed in this forum and is STILL in this forum!

[_Yoda]

Oh man, where to begin?

It would literally take me all day to respond to all the points I'd like to respond to. Let me just make a couple of points:[list][*]Yes, threads which are started with the entire intent to make a personal attack are moved to the Telestial Forum. If you believe otherwise--such as in the case of Coggins7's parody songs--then you aren't paying attention.

I may pay more attention than you (which is terrifying)? I know "Liz is a rat fink" stayed in this forum and is STILL in this forum!

Actually, PP changed the title of the thread to "Liz is a Goddess" and apologized. ;)

But yes, the thread is still in this forum, I believe. LOL

[Guest]

Oh man, where to begin?

It would literally take me all day to respond to all the points I'd like to respond to. Let me just make a couple of points:[list][*]Yes, threads which are started with the entire intent to make a personal attack are moved to the Telestial Forum. If you believe otherwise--such as in the case of Coggins7's parody songs--then you aren't paying attention.

I may pay more attention than you (which is terrifying)? I know "Liz is a rat fink" stayed in this forum and is STILL in this forum!

Actually, PP changed the title of the thread to "Liz is a Goddess" and apologized. ;)

But yes, the thread is still in this forum, I believe. LOL

Yet, he did that after I asked him to.
A mod never moved it when it was clearly a personal attack -- started with the clear intent of attacking a poster. I would prefer some sort of consistency.

[_Moniker]

Is Ray A -- Mormon Pimp Daddy (or whatever it was called) still in this forum?

I don't know -- maybe there really should be more mods. When Charity was attacked I sent a PM to Bond and asked him to move that thread to telestial and he did the next day. It just dirties up the board and when someone comes in (lurkers or what not) and sees this forum filled with personal vendettas it makes this community look fairly poor.

I think if there are rules they need to be enforced! Otherwise -- what's the point?

[_Mister Scratch]

Gee, I was under the impression that the topic had to do with what, exactly, constitutes "legit" discussion, and whether or not anything ought to be done, moderation-wise, in order to produce the sorts of threads that John Larsen and others say they want. Ray offered up a post about how a libel lawsuit is imminent, and I questioned his rhetoric. Really, Liz, what's wrong---or off-topic---about that? Is it really wrong, or "off-topic" to argue in favor of the discussion haven which Shades has created here? I assume that you support Shades's vision.... Right? Or do you favor the views of Ray and Coggins, who urge censorship?

Oh, please, Scratch. Of course, I support Shades' vision. I wouldn't have volunteered to be a Moderator if I didn't. (Although, at the moment, I am questioning my overall sanity...LOL)

You weren't simply "arguing for Shades' discussion haven." It may have started out that way, but let's face it. You and Ray sucked yourselves into a back and forth verbal pissing contest.

Perhaps. But take a look at this:

If there is something about this board that you don't like, THEN DON'T YOU DO THAT THING.

I re-post this only to point something out to you, Liz. You are complaining about a "verbal pissing contest," but how many times have you seen me complain about your "Come to my goddess suite!" derailments? And let's face it: your endless postings about "goddess suites," spanking, or whatever else, can get pretty tiresome, and they seem like much greater "derailments" (when have those posts EVER had anything to do with the topic?) than mine and Ray's back-and-forth here.

At base, I don't really care if you feel the need to get your jollies off with those flirty kinds of posts, or if you and your various "boys" derail the threads in the process. But, for heaven's sake, I don't appreciate lectures from someone who so frequently---and egregiously---derails threads with posts of that nature.

(Yes, I'm in a foul mood. I've had sick kids and haven't slept in two days. Sorry, guys. *sigh*)

Fair enough. Please get some rest, and I hope your children feel better soon.