Helen Whitney on Discussing Mormonism

[_Sethbag]

John, I see it as connected with the insatiable and incessant need of Mormons to convince each other, and to reassure each other, that the church is "true". Growing up in it we may not really have noticed it, but now, looking back, isn't it more than a little odd that Mormons are constantly in need of reminding that their church, their scriptures, and their prophets, are "true"?

Why is it that the last testimony, as broadcast by the church, of Gordon B. Hinckley has to include things like "the Book of Mormon is true", "Joseph Smith really did see God and Jesus", "the Church is true", etc.?

It seems that Mormonism's collective need for constant reptition of the mantra "I know [this church | the Book of Mormon | Joseph Smith | Gordon B. Hinckley] is true" seems to belie a certain underlying fragility of faith. Perhaps Mormons are so sensitive to criticism because it scratches taht underlying itch of fragility of faith? Something stands up to their repetition of the mantra and challenges it, and that's very scary to them?

I know that I've personally had the experience where LDS church members are visibly frightened of the notion that the church isn't really true. When I've gotten into conversation with some TBMs and explained why I thought that Joseph Smith wasn't a true prophet, rather than indignation, I've more often run into a fear-like reaction, where they have denied what I said, but then fearfully changed the subject and turned away from further conversation on it. They literally don't want to hear it. That's not every single TBM, as people like Charity will prove, but it's by far most of the ones I've talked to personally, amongst my (non-Internet) real life aquaintences.

[_Some Schmo]

However, I can publish an article critical of Core Catholic doctrines and the Catholics will not fall all to pieces. So why are Mormons seemingly more emotionally vested than other people who also believe their religion is true. I know this is a common characteristic of cults, but I have always been hesitant to suggest Mormonism is a cult.

Two comments:

1) Catholics don't appear to take their religion anywhere near as seriously as Mormons do. They may think it's "true" but they certainly don't regard it's truthfulness in the same way Mormons think of LDS truthfulness. If you were to confront a Catholic on the problematic aspects of their religion, they'd most likely listen and probably even agree with you. Their default position isn't one of defensiveness. They aren't emotionally invested in their church being "true." I think this is why Catholics are among the easiest to take for rationalists like myself.

2) Perhaps you might consider this a valid reason so many people actually do consider Mormonism a cult. That's certainly part of the reason for me.

[_John Larsen]

John, I see it as connected with the insatiable and incessant need of Mormons to convince each other, and to reassure each other, that the church is "true". Growing up in it we may not really have noticed it, but now, looking back, isn't it more than a little odd that Mormons are constantly in need of reminding that their church, their scriptures, and their prophets, are "true"?

Why is it that the last testimony, as broadcast by the church, of Gordon B. Hinckley has to include things like "the Book of Mormon is true", "Joseph Smith really did see God and Jesus", "the Church is true", etc.?

It seems that Mormonism's collective need for constant reptition of the mantra "I know [this church | the Book of Mormon | Joseph Smith | Gordon B. Hinckley] is true" seems to belie a certain underlying fragility of faith. Perhaps Mormons are so sensitive to criticism because it scratches taht underlying itch of fragility of faith? Something stands up to their repetition of the mantra and challenges it, and that's very scary to them?

I know that I've personally had the experience where LDS church members are visibly frightened of the notion that the church isn't really true. When I've gotten into conversation with some TBMs and explained why I thought that Joseph Smith wasn't a true prophet, rather than indignation, I've more often run into a fear-like reaction, where they have denied what I said, but then fearfully changed the subject and turned away from further conversation on it. They literally don't want to hear it. That's not every single TBM, as people like Charity will prove, but it's by far most of the ones I've talked to personally, amongst my (non-Internet) real life aquaintences.

You can measure a group or person by what they go around insisting all of the time. Things that are assumed to be true, our core underlying assumptions, are usually not brought up because everyone is already with. Graduate level mathematics courses do not require the students to constantly repeat the pythagorean theorem just to reassert how true it really is. Mormonism fetishization of "knowing" probably points to an underlying insecurity.

John

[_Some Schmo]

Mormonism fetishization of "knowing" probably points to an underlying insecurity.

I totally agree. I don't think there's any doubt about it.

And it's not only insecurity on the part of the members, but insecurity on the part of the leadership, going all the way back to Joe Smith. I mean, think about it; why would church leaders continue to drone on about testimony reinforcement if the philosophies and ideas didn't need the constant maintenance of reinforcement? If the church were so self-evidently true, one would think they could move past the mutual convincing parties and brainwashing baths (ie testimony meeting) and on to bigger, more important things, like discussing and planning projects to better society, help the poor, educate the masses, etc.

[_Mister Scratch]

It can't be discussed impartially because anyone who knows anything about it is not impartial to it. If you're talking about it, you have an emotional attachment. If you're indifferent, you wouldn't show up here.

Plus, you've got people talking about it from completely different paradigms. A great example is coggins talking about becoming god, and JAK coming on talking about god's existence in the first place. Clearly, if your base assumptions are different, the conversation isn't going to get much traction.

This isn't a subject like "how to cook a steak" where everyone can agree on the base assumptions, like "you need heat to cook something." If I start a thread on the best way to cook a steak, how far is it going to go if someone wants to argue that freezing is the best way to prepare food, or that you can't prove that heat cooks?

However, I can publish an article critical of Core Catholic doctrines and the Catholics will not fall all to pieces. So why are Mormons seemingly more emotionally vested than other people who also believe their religion is true.

I believe it stems from a combination of things. For one thing, the LDS "persecution complex" is a critical aspect of Mormon faith and culture (and even, arguably, "ethnicity"). It helps create a kind of clannishness, and the difficulty/insecurity therein serves as a reminder that living the Gospel is fundamentally a challenge. And since Mormonism is an American religion, the notion of something requiring hard work only feeds this sense of the Church's rightness.

Another key element, in my opinion, is the secrecy which pervades so much in Mormonism. Not knowing everything; keeping things in the shadows; locking ugly skeletons in the closet of history---these sorts of things contribute to an uneasiness when it comes to clarity. Most TBMs have grown so accustomed to doubt, uncertainty, mystery, and secrecy, that anything contrary to it begins to seem like the Devil's work. This is (in part, I'd say) why historically accurate works (cf. Quinn, Brodie, Brooks, etc., etc.) can so often feel as if they are draped in "a darkness" for TBMs.

[_Gazelam]

To dialog about the church is to discuss whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, or rather, did he really see the Father and the Son standing side by side?

If he was and did, then this is a matter ofdeep importance to any religious individual.

If they believe it was a lie, then why is the doctrine so perfect?: Why is it supported by other books of Enoch and other books of Abraham that have been discovered? Why does the Book of Mormon offer so much clarity on christian teachings? How does it offer so much depth when compared to anemic evangelical teachings?

The testimony of Joseph Smith demands something of anyone who has an interest in spiritual things.

[_John Larsen]

If they believe it was a lie, then why is the doctrine so perfect?

Are you being serious? If so, you are the first person I have ever heard claim the the doctrine is perfect. Do you want to restate that or are going to offer up some slippery definitions of doctrine and perfect.

[_Gazelam]

If they believe it was a lie, then why is the doctrine so perfect?

Are you being serious? If so, you are the first person I have ever heard claim the the doctrine is perfect. Do you want to restate that or are going to offer up some slippery definitions of doctrine and perfect.

The more I study, the more its like Im backing up from an incredible painting, like that scene in Ferris Bueller where Cameron is at the museum. At first you just see some colorful dots, but as you back up and see how many dots there are, and how they fit together, it creates a masterpiece.

Sometimes people here seem to me to be so focused on a dot of a different color, they can't calm down and let it go and just back the hell up and see whats really going on.

Its like Runtu talked about in his dream about Monson. Can you just set aside the little thing that troubles you and see what you really have here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZGytReP50A

[_Runtu]

The more I study, the more its like I'm backing up from an incredible painting, like that scene in Ferris Bueller where Cameron is at the museum. At first you just see some colorful dots, but as you back up and see how many dots there are, and how they fit together, it creates a masterpiece.

Sometimes people here seem to me to be so focused on a dot of a different color, they can't calm down and let it go and just back the hell up and see whats really going on.

Its like Runtu talked about in his dream about Monson. Can you just set aside the little thing that troubles you and see what you really have here.

Well, I have to disagree. When I back up and look at the big picture, I see very little to salvage in Mormonism. I'm not saying that to be critical, but that's how I feel about the church. The idea of a religion that finds divinity in humans is a good one, but it doesn't work well at all in practice.

[_Gazelam]

Runtu

The idea of a religion that finds divinity in humans is a good one, but it doesn't work well at all in practice.

Is that because of an inability on your part to see those around you progressing?