Helen Whitney on Discussing Mormonism

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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Gazelam wrote:Runtu
The idea of a religion that finds divinity in humans is a good one, but it doesn't work well at all in practice.



Image

Is that because of an inability on your part to see those around you progressing?


I don't think so. It just seems that when you divest the church of its mysticism, it really doesn't work all that well as a practical religion.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

I don't think so. It just seems that when you divest the church of its mysticism, it really doesn't work all that well as a practical religion.


What part would that be?

Stable families?

Moral codes?

Encouragement of education?

Thrift?

Good dietary habits?

leadership skills?

community involvement?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Pokatator
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Post by _Pokatator »

Gazelam wrote:
John Larsen wrote:
Gazelam wrote:
If they believe it was a lie, then why is the doctrine so perfect?


Are you being serious? If so, you are the first person I have ever heard claim the the doctrine is perfect. Do you want to restate that or are going to offer up some slippery definitions of doctrine and perfect.


The more I study, the more its like I'm backing up from an incredible painting, like that scene in Ferris Bueller where Cameron is at the museum. At first you just see some colorful dots, but as you back up and see how many dots there are, and how they fit together, it creates a masterpiece.

Sometimes people here seem to me to be so focused on a dot of a different color, they can't calm down and let it go and just back the hell up and see whats really going on.

Its like Runtu talked about in his dream about Monson. Can you just set aside the little thing that troubles you and see what you really have here.


thing?

Sorry, Gaz it isn't "a" thing.

It's things.

And it isn't little things.

It's lots and lots of BIG THINGS!

The Mormon picture is a mass of confusion, nothing but a man-made mass of confusion, oh, but it is mingled with a little bit of scripture.
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Gazelam wrote:
I don't think so. It just seems that when you divest the church of its mysticism, it really doesn't work all that well as a practical religion.


What part would that be?

Stable families?

Moral codes?

Encouragement of education?

Thrift?

Good dietary habits?

leadership skills?

community involvement?


To be honest, Mormonism works well on the surface, but at a high cost to the individual. People in the church have the same kinds of problems everyone else does, but they are much better at covering them up. I know that sounds cynical, but that's how it looks to me. And no matter what you say, the prime motivator in Mormonism seems to be guilt, not love.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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Post by _Pokatator »

Gazelam wrote:
I don't think so. It just seems that when you divest the church of its mysticism, it really doesn't work all that well as a practical religion.


What part would that be?

Stable families?

Moral codes?

Encouragement of education?

Thrift?

Good dietary habits?

leadership skills?

community involvement?


From a Christian point of view of which Mormonism claims to be one, does anything in your list except maybe "moral codes" have anything to do with trueness or salvation?

Those things can be found in many, many other groups that are not Christian or Mormon. Your list proves nothing.
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
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_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

People in the church have the same kinds of problems everyone else does, but they are much better at covering them up.


Covering it up, or dealing with it properly because you have the correct perspective?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Gazelam wrote:
People in the church have the same kinds of problems everyone else does, but they are much better at covering them up.


Covering it up, or dealing with it properly because you have the correct perspective?


Covering it up. If I meant "dealing with it properly because you have the correct perspective" I would have said so. What I mean is that there seems to be a large disconnect between what many people in the church think they should be and what they actually are. So they compensate by acting the part, "faking it till they make it" if you will. You scratch beneath the surface in the church and the problems are there, but no one admits to them.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Are you of the opinion that people should wear their shortcoming on their sleeves as some sort of badge of honor?

Why revel in it, or wallow in it?

Should I supply you with a laundry list of my shortcomings? Shouldent an intelligent individual already be aware that no one is perfect and we all excell or fail at different things? A standard scripture oft repeated in the church is that we all ahve weaknesses so that we can be made strong.

Being a member of the church doesent excuse us from lifes trials, it only means that we have made covenants with our God regarding how we will deal with these trials. We covenant with God that we will make lemonade out of lemons. This covenant does not excuse us from faling out of the trees picking them, or knicking our fingers while cutting them, or stinging our eyes while juicing them, or gettign bad deals on the purchase of the sugar. But it does promise a reward regarding our ability to deal honestly while goign about our labors, that reward being a worthy name in the world and a strong character.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Gazelam wrote:Are you of the opinion that people should wear their shortcoming on their sleeves as some sort of badge of honor?

Why revel in it, or wallow in it?

Should I supply you with a laundry list of my shortcomings? Shouldent an intelligent individual already be aware that no one is perfect and we all excell or fail at different things? A standard scripture oft repeated in the church is that we all have weaknesses so that we can be made strong.

Being a member of the church doesent excuse us from lifes trials, it only means that we have made covenants with our God regarding how we will deal with these trials. We covenant with God that we will make lemonade out of lemons. This covenant does not excuse us from faling out of the trees picking them, or knicking our fingers while cutting them, or stinging our eyes while juicing them, or gettign bad deals on the purchase of the sugar. But it does promise a reward regarding our ability to deal honestly while goign about our labors, that reward being a worthy name in the world and a strong character.


I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. What I am saying is that there is a disincentive in the church against resolving one's problems; repentance is supposed to be difficult and often involves public shame. There is a lot of pressure on church members to live the right way, and rather than resolve their shortcomings, I've seen a lot of people just go through the motions and keep up appearances.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_BishopRic
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Post by _BishopRic »

I agree with Runtu here. There are many unrealistic expectations put on Mormons. I believe that is why there is so much depression and suicide in Mormonism (and I'll throw in the high pornography addiction rate, but that's another thread...), and I'm amazed at how well many cover it up.

In my short stint as acting bishop, I was bombarded with members with serious problems that I would have never guessed based on appearances. There is no doubt there is pressure to look good to others, and it is sad because admitting problems is the first step to getting appropriate help.
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
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