Are anti-Mormons to blame for Romney's failure?

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Hogwash. Over at MAD the Mormons have the moderators to shoot down these kinds of comments, which is precisely what happened when I posted there. They deleted the post. If they were at all capable of "broadsiding" me with it, then they would have welcomed the post and used it as an opportunity to make themselves look good. But they didn't, because they can't. And neither can you. You haven't dealt with anything I have presented. The statistics prove Mormons are the bigots here and now they are trying their best to make Romney look like a victim. They are the ones who get together and vote along religious lines. They do it more than Evangelicals. This is a proven fact.


The only proven fact, Dartagnon, is that, if you'll excuse me, based upon your interaction with your detractors here, the reason you were banned at the MAD boards is most likely because you act like an ass; you're hostile, smarmy, smug, arrogant, and dogmatic, especially about scholarly issues that are, in point of fact, very much within the realms of tentativeness and uncertainty.

They don't allow that kind of thing there, but they do here.

Therefore, you're here, and not there.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


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_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Coggins7 wrote:...because you act like an ass; you're hostile, smarmy, smug, arrogant, and dogmatic, especially about scholarly issues that are, in point of fact, very much within the realms of tentativeness and uncertainty.
that's you to a T.
They don't allow that kind of thing there, but they do here.



I rest my case
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_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

The only thing I can offer you is an anecdotal co-worker story.

My co-worker is a typical Southern Baptist/EV/Nu Southern Christian (It's all pretty much the same here in the Dirty South). They think everyone else is going to Hell in a handbasket. So. When Romney announced his decision to drop out of the race, who do you think let out a big, "Yes!" and pumped his fist? Repeatedly. That's right. My co-worker. When I asked him what was the general perception of Southerners and/or Christians of Romney the first thing out of his mouth was "CULT". And of course he's pulling for Aw-Shucks-abe.

So. In a word. Yes. "Anti-Mormons" were very instrumental in getting this EV/SB/Nu X pastor cum politico elected in a bid to defeat Romney.

HOWEVER. For a state where 90% of the delegates voted for their Mormon candidate I think Mormons have very little to complain about when it's very clear that their religious dogma drove their voting habits.
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_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

antishock8 wrote:HOWEVER. For a state where 90% of the delegates voted for their Mormon candidate I think Mormons have very little to complain about when it's very clear that their religious dogma drove their voting habits.


I might agree with you if they (Utah Mormons) hadn't voted for an evangelical named George W. Bush with nearly the same salivating enthusiasm twice.
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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

George Bush wasn't an Evangleical minister. And there wasn't a Mormon candidate when Bush was running, so it was more of a case of pick the lesser evil. And it was between Bush and Kerry the liberal democrat, consequently won nearly 30% of the vote in Utah. Compare that with 1% for Huckabee the minister.
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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

I should add that it isn't appropriate to use the 2004 primary result as some kind of indicator because Bush was running as the incumbent, and had anywhere between 80-100% all throughout the country.

But back in 2000, the Utah voters went with Bush at 57%, but get this. Alan Keys received 19% and McCain 14%.

This year the picture is completely different. It is as if the entire state decided to vote on religious grounds and decidedly against the minister.

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/PCC/UT-R.html
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

dartagnan wrote:George Bush wasn't an Evangleical minister. And there wasn't a Mormon candidate when Bush was running, so it was more of a case of pick the lesser evil. And it was between Bush and Kerry the liberal democrat, consequently won nearly 30% of the vote in Utah. Compare that with 1% for Huckabee the minister.


Well this was a primary and not a general elections. But are you really surprised the Mormons would vote for one of their own.

Now here is an interesting question. What if it was Harry Reid running. What would Mormons do then?
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Jason Bourne wrote:
dartagnan wrote:George Bush wasn't an Evangleical minister. And there wasn't a Mormon candidate when Bush was running, so it was more of a case of pick the lesser evil. And it was between Bush and Kerry the liberal democrat, consequently won nearly 30% of the vote in Utah. Compare that with 1% for Huckabee the minister.


Well this was a primary and not a general elections. But are you really surprised the Mormons would vote for one of their own.

Now here is an interesting question. What if it was Harry Reid running. What would Mormons do then?


If he was running against Huck, I'd say reid would get 90% of the vote.
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_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

dartagnan wrote:George Bush wasn't an Evangleical minister. And there wasn't a Mormon candidate when Bush was running, so it was more of a case of pick the lesser evil. And it was between Bush and Kerry the liberal democrat, consequently won nearly 30% of the vote in Utah. Compare that with 1% for Huckabee the minister.


And Romney isn't a Mormon minister either. Your point is?

Of course the Mormons were going to jump at the first chance to have one of their own in the white house. Big frickin' deal! The Evs have one of their own in the white house, and it has been recognized for some time that they are an important force in politics. Mormons, I would wager, don't have the same sense of their political impact as a collective group. They see their political power in the fact that there are Mormons in high office, and that when they cooperate with Catholics and Evs on 'moral' issues, their money (substantial) and influence (such that it is) makes a difference. I think you are wrong when you argue as though there is real parity here.

Here are my thoughts. First, I think it is fantastic that a large number of evangelicals around the country voted for Romney. Fewer in the South and Midwest, but still a lot.

And yet, there is a powerful movement of Mormon haters in conservative Christian circles. Not just the kinds of folks that say, "we have the truth and they don't," but, in its darkest version, "the Mormons worship Satan," and worse. In other words, the worst rhetoric used against Mormonism has bordered on creepy hate literature--stuff that harks back to anti-Jewish rhetoric in antiquity and may even border on modern anti-Semitic-style rhetoric at times.

Mormons have worked to expunge this kind of prejudice from their own tradition. The temple film has been updated time and again to dull attacks on Christian clergy. The "Great and Abominable Church" has been reinterpreted to refer not to a specific church, like the Catholic Church, but anyone who fights against the LDS Church (like me and you?). Although this kind of garbage is not gone, it no longer holds an officially and widely accepted place in our tradition. It is difficult to directly compare what happens with anti-Mormon propaganda in Christian churches, because they are not organized under a single hierarchy. Still, I find it disturbing that anti-Mormon propaganda gets as much play as it does among churches.

Huckabee runs in the kind of circles where anti-Mormon propaganda is passed out for free at major gatherings. Literature designed specifically to attack Mormonism at meetings where a major goal is the challenging of specifically Mormon faith. He used this on the campaign trail, and he knew he would get an audience because...DUH...he has been a major figure in meetings where this crap has gone on. He isn't stupid! He knew what he was doing. His audience, at least a fair chunk of them, did listen and I would say they factored their distrust of Mormons into their decision.

A Mormon candidate wouldn't even have the option of doing something similar... wouldn't be in a similar position. Mormons do not have well-orchestrated, ongoing campaigns (including videos, radio programs, pamphlets, ministries, etc.) to specifically denigrate Christians with distorting propaganda. Any Mormon candidate that made denigrating Trinitarian Christianity any part of his campaign would have his ass handed to him on a platter! Many Mormons would wonder what the hell kind of stupid thing he thought he was doing.

Finally, I can't believe your quote above. It is absolutely absurd and frankly beneath your intelligence. Mormons voted for Bush with enthusiasm, just as Mormons have cooperated with Catholics and Evs with enthusiasm in forwarding a conservative social agenda. They weren't picking the lesser of two evils!?!?!?! You are being a total nitwit here.

Then, given the chance to support a Mormon candidate for president, who for the first time in the history of the religion actually had a great chance of being president, motivated them to wild enthusiasm. They were falling all over themselves to vote for Romney. That Huckabee was a Baptist minister hardly factored into the decision at all. They couldn't have cared less. They were excited about Romney. I can't see how on earth you would twist this into an anti-Ev prejudice that motivated them to vote against Huckabee.

Mormons want to be accepted. And they want their own to succeed. And yes, there is greater homogeneity in Mormon voting than there was in Ev voting. But, it was motivated by the aforementioned excitement, not by fear of having what they essentially have had for the past 8 years (in terms of faith agenda). Most of them have loved what they have had for the last 8 years--an openly religious president with conservative social values who used his position to forward a pro-religion and Christian values agenda. I doubt they would have, as a whole, nitpicked over the theology of Huckabee's beliefs rather than get behind him to make sure that conservative Christian faith continued to be supported by the executive branch of government.

Mormons voted overwhelmingly for Romney because the guy really had a great shot. Too bad for them that he blew it!

Get real, dart!
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_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Who Knows wrote:If he was running against Huck, I'd say reid would get 90% of the vote.


That I kind of doubt.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
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