This is the conclusion of a talk given by Joseph Fielding McKonkie at a family reunion last November:
I conclude with what was for me a defining moment. As a young man working on a Master’s Degree in Church History I frequently did research in the Church Historians office. Granddaddy Smith’s office adjoined the Historians Office on the third floor of the Church Office 7 Building. You will remember that he served both as the Church Historian and as the President of the Quorum of the Twelve. This meant that I had frequent occasion to pass by Granddaddy’s office. The door to the outer office where his secretary Ruby Egbert worked was always open. She knew all of Granddaddies children and grandchildren and had been instructed not to let any of them pass without bringing them in to see him. I have a very distinct recollection of being ushered into Granddaddy office. After a short visit I, out of respect for his time, stood to leave. He got up and came around his desk to walk me to the door. As I stood in the door way he put his arm around my shoulders and pulled me around so that we met eye to eye, then he said, “Now you remember that you have the blood of prophets in your veins.”A very tender feeling attended the moment. There was no sense or feeling that I was being told that I was better than anyone else; nor was there any question that I was being told that I had a responsibility to my forebears. The feeling was that I had been entrusted with something special and that I was expected to act accordingly. All here tonight share equally in that charge, “You have the blood of prophets in your veins” those born in the family and those who have joined it by marriage. The authority of the priesthood has pronounced us one. It is as Moses said of the house of Israel anciently, “Would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!” (Numbers 11:29.)Such is our covenant, may such also be our lot, in the name of Jesus Christ Amen.
The reason given for a man having sleeping with many women is "to raise up seed."
Apologists claim that even in the Book of Mormon the "raise up seed" is the only reason God would allow this abomination.
I'm still waiting to hear how back in the day, a man could "raise up seed," without sex. ;-)
Well, you've conveniently left off part of the reason. The full reason is 'raise up unto me' (Jacob 2:30). Such a reason broadens plural marraige beyond sex and can simply include raising children LDS.
The reason given for a man having sleeping with many women is "to raise up seed."
Apologists claim that even in the Book of Mormon the "raise up seed" is the only reason God would allow this abomination.
I'm still waiting to hear how back in the day, a man could "raise up seed," without sex. ;-)
Well, you've conveniently left off part of the reason. The full reason is 'raise up unto me' (Jacob 2:30). Such a reason broadens plural marraige beyond sex and can simply include raising children LDS.
But it's clear that sex with your plural wives was not forbidden. Brigham Young and others had sex with their plural wives. Why do apologists argue that Joseph did not, when there would be no reason for him not to?
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
SatanWasSetUp wrote:But it's clear that sex with your plural wives was not forbidden. Brigham Young and others had sex with their plural wives. Why do apologists argue that Joseph did not, when there would be no reason for him not to?
I think it's for a few reasons:
Joseph Smith married fanny alger before the sealing power was 'restored'.
Joseph Smith was secretive about his marriages, hiding some of them from Emma.
Joseph Smith married women prior to his 'penning' of the revelation.
Joseph Smith lied to the population at large about polygamy.
Joseph Smith married other mens wives.
Different story for BY. He was open about it all.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Well, you've conveniently left off part of the reason. The full reason is 'raise up unto me' (Jacob 2:30). Such a reason broadens plural marraige beyond sex and can simply include raising children LDS.
But it's clear that sex with your plural wives was not forbidden. Brigham Young and others had sex with their plural wives. Why do apologists argue that Joseph did not, when there would be no reason for him not to?
I think they are arguing that sealing does not necessarily equate to marriage. I tend to agree.
SatanWasSetUp wrote:But it's clear that sex with your plural wives was not forbidden. Brigham Young and others had sex with their plural wives. Why do apologists argue that Joseph did not, when there would be no reason for him not to?
I think it's for a few reasons:
Joseph Smith married fanny alger before the sealing power was 'restored'. Joseph Smith was secretive about his marriages, hiding some of them from Emma. Joseph Smith married women prior to his 'penning' of the revelation. Joseph Smith lied to the population at large about polygamy. Joseph Smith married other mens wives.
Different story for BY. He was open about it all.
Something occurred to me reading your post. You know, it's interesting to contrast Joseph Smith and BY.
I don't buy into the pious fraud theory. I think Joseph Smith knew exactly what he was doing when he conned people. He sure was secretive about a whole bunch of things.
But then BY comes along, who totally buys all the crap Joseph Smith has shoveled, institutionalizes the church, embraces all of Joseph Smith's oddities and revels in them, and adds a few of his own. BY was most definitely the first Mormon fundamentalist, and as insane as they come. Talk about unapologetically Mormon.
You can say what you want about Joseph Smith (go ahead... I'll likely cheer you on) but at least he had the common sense to hide the more unsavory crap he was doing on the side. BY just did whatever the hell he wanted and resorted to blood atonement if you didn't like it.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
The reason given for a man having sleeping with many women is "to raise up seed."
Apologists claim that even in the Book of Mormon the "raise up seed" is the only reason God would allow this abomination.
I'm still waiting to hear how back in the day, a man could "raise up seed," without sex. ;-)
Well, you've conveniently left off part of the reason. The full reason is 'raise up unto me' (Jacob 2:30). Such a reason broadens plural marriage beyond sex and can simply include raising children LDS.
I must be missing something.
What does "unto me" have to do with the fact that God said he will allow the abomination that is polygamy if he wants to raise up seed?
Are you suggesting that in the Book of Mormon, God says he will allow the abomination of polygamy if he wants to raise up seed, but polygamy has nothing to do with men having multiple sexual partners to produce offspring?
Why in the world would this be an abomination and break the hearts of his daughters, and be condemned by God if it was just about helping children be raised unto Christ?
This makes no sense to me.
Perhaps you could clarify.
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
What does "unto me" have to do with the fact that God said he will allow the abomination that is polygamy if he wants to raise up seed?
Nowhere does scripture refer to God-authorized plural marriage as an abomination.
Are you suggesting that in the Book of Mormon, God says he will allow the abomination of polygamy if he wants to raise up seed, but polygamy has nothing to do with men having multiple sexual partners to produce offspring?
I never said plural marriage has nothing to do with sexual relations, however, I think it is being said that sexual relations are not required to raise up seed "unto me".
Well, you've conveniently left off part of the reason. The full reason is 'raise up unto me' (Jacob 2:30). Such a reason broadens plural marraige beyond sex and can simply include raising children LDS.
This fails in its power to explain polyandry, in which the wife already had a faithful LDS husband, and it fails to explain why leaders in the church married a high number of women, including very young women who already had single LDS suitors.
The royal bloodline is the only explanation with the power to explain ALL aspects of LDS marital history.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.