Are anti-Mormons to blame for Romney's failure?

[_Who Knows]

If he was running against Huck, I'd say reid would get 90% of the vote.

That I kind of doubt.

Ok then. What do you think? Would huck beat out reid?

[_Trevor]

Ok then. What do you think? Would huck beat out reid?

Well, this is where it gets complicated. A fair number of Mormons suspect that Reid is not really Mormon, as they understand Mormonism. When you cross party lines, that brings in a whole different set of factors.

I think Huckabee would definitely garner more LDS votes as a conservative Republican running against Reid the Democrat, although the latter is Mormon.

It is important to keep in mind how important conservative values are to Mormons. Most Mormons are Republican. Not a few question how a real, TBM Mormon could be a Democrat. For this reason, Huckabee would do better running against Reid.

[_Who Knows]

Ok then. What do you think? Would huck beat out reid?

Well, this is where it gets complicated. A fair number of Mormons suspect that Reid is not really Mormon, as they understand Mormonism. When you cross party lines, that brings in a whole different set of factors.

I think Huckabee would definitely garner more LDS votes as a conservative Republican running against Reid the Democrat, although the latter is Mormon.

It is important to keep in mind how important conservative values are to Mormons. Most Mormons are Republican. Not a few question how a real, TBM Mormon could be a Democrat. For this reason, Huckabee would do better running against Reid.

I don't know man. Did you see that ksl poll i posted a while back? (i know, i know, it's only a poll). But still, it showed that 30% of those that voted for romney in the primary will switch parties and vote for obama. I think that number would at least double were a Mormon running for pres. in the Democrat. party. Oh, and only 2% said they'd vote for huck now. No support for huck at all. But we're all just guessing...

[_dartagnan]

And Romney isn't a Mormon minister either. Your point is?

Romney is considered by Mormons to have more authority than any Evangelical minister. He preached the gospel for two years as a missionary and I believe he even served as a bishop at one point.

My point is the LDS hatred towards Evangelical ministers precludes a Republican Evangelical candidate from ever winning in Utah, especially against a Mormon candidate. Yet, the evidence shows a Mormon beat out an Evangelical minister in overall votes, in the Bible Belt states.

Just browse the MADB and see the various comments about Huckabee. The fact that he is a conservative republican means nothing to them. The fact that he is an Evangelical minister means everything.

Of course the Mormons were going to jump at the first chance to have one of their own in the white house. Big frickin' deal!

But Huckabee is more conservative that McCain, yet McCain found more support in Utah than Huckabee. Hell, even Ron Paul beat Huckabee in Utah. So the "Mormons are very conservative, therefore they voted for Romney who is most conservative," excuse doesn't wash with me.

The Evs have one of their own in the white house, and it has been recognized for some time that they are an important force in politics. Mormons, I would wager, don't have the same sense of their political impact as a collective group.

Very true. And this is what Mormons can't seem to get into their heads. Evangelicals represent a quarter of the country, and without Evangelical support, Romney would never have had a chance. They should be thankful that Evangelicals can put aside their theological differences; instead we see Mormons crying victim to religious intolerance. You see Evangelicals going with the Mormon, but you don't see Mormons going with the Evangelical. My point with this is to highlight the hypocrisy when Mromons complain about Romney losing because 50% of Evangelicals say they wouldn't vote Mormon. Yet as far as I can tell, there is no evidence that even 1% of Mormons would vote for an Evangelical minister.

They see their political power in the fact that there are Mormons in high office, and that when they cooperate with Catholics and Evs on 'moral' issues, their money (substantial) and influence (such that it is) makes a difference. I think you are wrong when you argue as though there is real parity here.

Then how do you explain the evidence? I have presented plenty, but nobody seems to be interested in dealing with it.

there is a powerful movement of Mormon haters in conservative Christian circles. Not just the kinds of folks that say, "we have the truth and they don't," but, in its darkest version, "the Mormons worship Satan," and worse.

There is no reason to believe this is a "powerful" movement at all. Again, I presented evidence to prove that these anti-Mormon ministries are not only marginal, but that their "influence" can't even persuade its own county voters to vote against the Mormon.

In other words, the worst rhetoric used against Mormonism has bordered on creepy hate literature--stuff that harks back to anti-Jewish rhetoric in antiquity and may even border on modern anti-Semitic-style rhetoric at times.

Now you're playing into the Mormon persecution nonsense, assuming it is much worse than it really is. I'll simply ask you the same thing I ask them. Show me the evidence that any of these idiot ministries have made an influencial dent in the election. So far all I have gotten are a couple of internet blogs written by political pundits who operate on speculation and a dose of resentment that their man didn't win.

Mormons have worked to expunge this kind of prejudice from their own tradition. The temple film has been updated time and again to dull attacks on Christian clergy.

The Church has been a whore to modern society for a long time now, changing whatever it needs to fit in. Of course they rationalize this as "revelation" changing what is needed, but we know better. So the general public doesn't like the Lorenzo Snow couplet, and it is damaging the Church's credibility as a plausible faith? Then send the prophet on Larry King to say we don't teach it. So the civil rights movement wins over bigotry in the country through a protestant minister named Martin? Well the Church has to change its tune with regards to its relationship with the negro, and remove the priesthood restrictions, all through "revelation" of course.

Sure, there have been politically expedient steps taken by the Church, but to say Mormonsim has expunged its prejudice from its tradition is simply naïve. The hatred towards Evangelicals and Catholics remains stable. You're more likely to see an Ensign article praising Muhammad than one praising John Calvin or the Pope. One only needs to frequent the Mormon forums to find out just what exactly is being said by Mormons, and what is tolerated by Mormons. Huckabee is automatically an "anti-Mormon" because he probably taught some classes on Mormonism (isn't that what all Evangelical ministers do?); he is one who is engaged in priestcrafts, which makes him one of Satan's minions. Over at MADB the Mormons are calling him "sick," "evil," and insisting "satan is laughing" because he beat Romney.
The Church is also aware of its measley few million "active" members in the USA, so it isn't going to throw around much weight in the political arena.

The "Great and Abominable Church" has been reinterpreted to refer not to a specific church, like the Catholic Church, but anyone who fights against the LDS Church (like me and you?).

And only a small portion of the Church buys into this nonsense. No sir, the tradition has not been expunged. The only reason McConkie's book was republished in a different format was because of the public outrage it created. The Church members, however, realize that the Church has to play politics sometimes. They know that what McConkie said was in fact true, because that is consistent with 160 years of LDS tradition.

Although this kind of garbage is not gone, it no longer holds an officially and widely accepted place in our tradition.

It most certainly does. You need to get out more and hang out with LDS in different wards in different countires. Your definately not going to get a realistic understanding of the typical Mormon mindset by reading FARMS or even Ensign.

It is difficult to directly compare what happens with anti-Mormon propaganda in Christian churches, because they are not organized under a single hierarchy. Still, I find it disturbing that anti-Mormon propaganda gets as much play as it does among churches.

Well, not all of the anti-Mormon propaganda is false. Would you object if Brent Metcalfe's book was passed out instead of Ed Decker's? Mormons and teh bigot-baiters like to sum up all anti-Mormonism as lies, period. It isn't that simple, and for LDS to constantly whine about the fact that Evangelicals provide "anti-Mormon" books in their own private institutions, while ignoring the fact that the Mormon Church does precisely the same thing (minus the books), is nothing short of hypocrisy.

Our bishop in Brazil went on a rant while teaching Gospel Doctrine class about how the Pope knows the LDS Church is true, but insisted he rejects it because he is too prideful. He even said Satan had lured him with all the money and gold at his disposal. Now this was a few months ago, but it was in the year 2007, more than fourty years after McConkie's bigotry was "expunged" from Mormon Doctrine. His comment was no exception to a rule. His comments prove the rule.

Now you tell me what is more "powerful" here...

1) The fact that some books written by mom and pop companies, bad-mouthing Mormonism are for sale at some Evangelical Churches

or

2) To have anti-Mormonism intergrated as part of every day discussion during sunday school.

The latter of course, but only the former is true. Most Evangelicals rarely come across discussions regarding Mormonism. However, in the LDS faith, discussions about Catholicism and Protestantism is the norm. Why? Because it has to address these faiths in order to talk about the LDS doctrine of apostasy. It has to constantly justify its own existence by demeaning the competition, and this is done on a weekly basis in sunday schools in LDS chapels throughout the world.

This is why I sneeze at these complaints by Mormons and those pretending Mormons are victims of bigotry.

I know better.

Huckabee runs in the kind of circles where anti-Mormon propaganda is passed out for free at major gatherings.

Who gives a crap? That is their Church and they can do whatever they want. Contrary to preferred Mormon myth, not all Evangelical Churches worry about Mormons or engage in "education" about Mormonism. But don't kid yourself into thinking the LDS Church is any different, because it isn't. It teaches fear in its members. Fear of the Christian in every way Christians sometimes teach fear of the Mormon. I have family in Utah who tell their kids that those Churches with crosses on them are Satanic. On my mission I was told by missionaries that the Pope has 666 written in Roman Numerals on his hat. The Church sends tens of thousands of missionaries into Evangelical country, to inform its people that theirs is an apostate faith, and theirs is a Satanic version of the godhead concocted by a baby boiling madman named Constantine, that theirs is a "man-made" Church with no authority, etc.

You know, I hear more about the anti-Mormonism FROM Mormons. They are the ones who keep giving it more attention than it deserves. Evangelicals are gradually letting go of idiots like Decker and Martin. But Mormons can't afford to let that happen. They want to be able to use them as the "standard" in anti-Mormonism so they can easily dismiss the rest of it which isn't bigotry based on lies and misinformation. There is a substantial part of these types of literature that provide far more information than one could ever receive from Church materials, and for this reason the Church seeks to condemn everything critical of the faith under the rubric of "anti-Mormonism."

He used this on the campaign trail, and he knew he would get an audience because...DUH...he has been a major figure in meetings where this crap has gone on. He isn't stupid! He knew what he was doing. His audience, at least a fair chunk of them, did listen and I would say they factored their distrust of Mormons into their decision.

And we see how well that worked out didn't we? Not very. Romney still got more Evangelical votes in the South than Huckabee. So why are you complaining about a holding call in the fourth quater when your team already won 55-0? You see, all i see here is diversion. None of this means a hill of beans. Maybe in the early 1900's it would have mattered, but not today. If anyone should be given credit for "expunging" its tradition of bigotry, it is the Evangelical community.

A Mormon candidate wouldn't even have the option of doing something similar... wouldn't be in a similar position.

Only because Mormons do not represent a quarter of the US population. Otherwise, you'd see the same exact thing taking place.

Mormons do not have well-orchestrated, ongoing campaigns (including videos, radio programs, pamphlets, ministries, etc.) to specifically denigrate Christians with distorting propaganda.

Again, if Mormons represented a quarter of the population and Christians represented less than 1%, then you would see that exact thing taking place.

Any Mormon candidate that made denigrating Trinitarian Christianity any part of his campaign would have his ass handed to him on a platter!

But Mormons in general do this all the time. The reason the Mormon politician doesn't is because he knows it won't go over well with a Christian populace. He is looking out for numero uno. So what does that say about Mormons? When the cameras are in their faces, they give us one side. When behind closed doors during Gospel Doctrine class, they give a completely different one. that's not integrity, it is duplicity.

Many Mormons would wonder what the hell kind of stupid thing he thought he was doing.

In a political sense, yes, but in a religious sense, they are cheering him on. Mormosn absolutely love to bash the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Wander over to MADB any week and you'll find a couple of threads dedicated to its ridicule.

Finally, I can't believe your quote above. It is absolutely absurd and frankly beneath your intelligence. Mormons voted for Bush with enthusiasm

Of course they did, and I have never said otherwise. But Bush isn't an Evangelical minister now is he? Why do you not see the difference? In Mormonism Evangelicals are simply misled people who are awaiting missionaries. Evangelical ministers are Satan's hired help.

just as Mormons have cooperated with Catholics and Evs with enthusiasm in forwarding a conservative social agenda. They weren't picking the lesser of two evils!?!?!?! You are being a total nitwit here.

You're comparing two entirely different things here. I never said Mormons have never cooperated with Catholics and Evangelicals for a conservative agenda. Are you trying hard not to pay attention here? Mormons do not want to put an Evangelical minister into office because it is taken for granted among Mormons that ministers are satan's hired hand, who often teache "anti-Mormonosm" etc. Please, try to understand what I'm saying before going off. Nothing you just said changes the fact that Mormons in Utah voted along religious lines. The evidence is overwhelming. The "lesser of the two evils" is actually a comment I got from a Mromon discussing this topic months ago, so I am not pulling this out of my butt.

In 2000 the Utah Republican Primary saw 91,000 votes. That's a total number of votes from all republican voters. In 2008, that number more than tripled! There were more than 284,000 votes, 255,000 for Romney alone.

Why don't you do us all a favor and name me one Mormon who voted for Huckabee. Just one!!

Then, given the chance to support a Mormon candidate for president, who for the first time in the history of the religion actually had a great chance of being president, motivated them to wild enthusiasm.They were falling all over themselves to vote for Romney.

Yes, I agree, which goes to prove my point that Mormons are hypocrites for voting strictly along religious lines. Theya re even willing to cross parties to make sure a Mormon gets in. This means they put religious agendas before political agendas, which should scare teh hell out of anyone hoping to keep religion out of government.

That Huckabee was a Baptist minister hardly factored into the decision at all. They couldn't have cared less.

I disagree. The fact that Romney was up against one of Satan's minions, only meant the stakes had risen for Mormons with an apocalyptic worldview. The fact that Huckabee lost by such a ridiculous margin, proves much in my book. Again, if Utah is so conservative, then why McCain beat Huckabee by such a huge margin? Huckabee is more conservative, so one would think that at least SOME Mormons would have voted for him. Yet, to date, I cannot find a single Mormon who has. I cannot find a single Mormons who has even stated he would be his second choice. Why did McCain have four times the vote than Huckabee. Why did Ron Paul have twice the votes that Huckabee won?

Nobody has answered this.

They were excited about Romney. I can't see how on earth you would twist this into an anti-Ev prejudice that motivated them to vote against Huckabee.

While you're freaking out for no reason, would you mind naming for me a single Mormon on planet earth who voted for Huckabee?

I doubt they would have, as a whole, nitpicked over the theology of Huckabee's beliefs rather than get behind him to make sure that conservative Christian faith continued to be supported by the executive branch of government.

Mormons follow the axiom, if you can't beat them, try to blend in. Only because they are a minority do they frequyently play the victim card. But if the tables were turned, there is no doubt the shoe would be on the other foot. Only the LDS Church has a history of theocratic tendencies.

Mormons voted overwhelmingly for Romney because the guy really had a great shot. Too bad for them that he blew it!

He only had a shot if he could win California. He didn't even come close. The irony here is that the Evangelicals are to be thanked for making Romney look more formidable than he really was. But instead Mormons give them grief. We'll see how that works out for them in future elections, now that Mormons have shown their true colors, and have demonstrated an urgency to vote along religious lines. For me this is no more respectable than choosing the next prophet along political lines.

Huckabee would do better running against Reid.

That would be an interesting race, but I think you're wrong. As illustrated above, Mormons are more interested in voting along religious lines. Huckabee wouldn't stand a chance.

[_Trevor]

I don't know man. Did you see that ksl poll I posted a while back? (I know, I know, it's only a poll). But still, it showed that 30% of those that voted for romney in the primary will switch parties and vote for obama. I think that number would at least double were a Mormon running for pres. in the Democrat. party. Oh, and only 2% said they'd vote for huck now. No support for huck at all. But we're all just guessing...

And Obama is not a Mormon. You seem to have missed my point that Mormons do care what kind of Mormon one is. I don't know how much of a difference that would make, but I do believe it would make some difference. Of course, it would depend on how Reid runs on the issues Mormons care about. If Huckabee and Reid were close enough on issues that they really care about, then I would say they'd go for the Mormon.

I don't see this as a real surprise. Nor am I scandalized by this. Mormons want a Mormon in the white house mostly out of tribal pride. I do not see it as primarily an issue of minister hating. I don't see anti-evangelical fervor in Mormons voting for Huckabee. Mormon prejudice against Christianity, such that it is, is pretty equal opportunity, and that has yet to hurt a presidential candidate that I know of. After all, how many Mormons have run for president? Four? How many had a real chance other than Romney?

[_Who Knows]

Mormons want a Mormon in the white house mostly out of tribal pride.

That's what I've been saying. I'm also saying the same is true for the EVs. The EVs voted for huck for the same reason - not simply to keep the Mormon (mitt) out of the white house (due to anti-mormonism).

[_Trevor]

Mormons want a Mormon in the white house mostly out of tribal pride.

That's what I've been saying. I'm also saying the same is true for the EVs. The EVs voted for huck for the same reason - not simply to keep the Mormon (mitt) out of the white house (due to anti-mormonism).

I am sure that is part of the picture too. Doesn't mean that anti-Mormonism wasn't an important factor.

[_Trevor]

He only had a shot if he could win California. He didn't even come close. The irony here is that the Evangelicals are to be thanked for making Romney look more formidable than he really was. But instead Mormons give them grief. We'll see how that works out for them in future elections, now that Mormons have shown their true colors, and have demonstrated an urgency to vote along religious lines. For me this is no more respectable than choosing the next prophet along political lines.

I crafted a nice long reply to your megapost, and then my computer timed out and I lost it. That will teach me to use my text editor in the future. Here is what I have the energy left to say in reply to all of the rhetoric you offered.

I do not recall you showing me any polling information that indicates why Mormons did not vote for Huckabee. What your time at MADB, your Brazilian bishop, and "a Mormon" you talked to said, does not substitute for hard facts. It does not even come close to the more widely held perception in the press that anti-Mormonism was in fact an issue. Show me the poll that indicates that Huckabee being a minister was a real issue for Mormons.

I don't doubt that the good evangelical folk who voted for Romney or McCain should be commended for seeing past sect and theology. Or maybe they should be derided for spectacularly poor taste. It does not change the fact that prejudice against Mormonism was not an issue in the campaign. Many people outside of Mormonism saw that it would be before the damn thing even got underway. Why you feel you need to minimize into obscurity something that was blatantly obvious to most everyone else is beyond me. It seems positively perverse.

I have no idea why Mormons should give a pass to the people who proliferate or tolerate anti-Mormon rhetoric. Maybe what Mormons have a problem with is a non-Mormon who publicly misrepresents their beliefs in an unflattering way to win votes. Who cares whether it worked? The man is a class A bigot and deserves to lose. I wonder how many Mormons would have voted for this kind of person, even if he were not a minister! Still, give me the poll that shows that Huckabee being a minion of Satan was a factor in Mormon voting!

Could it be that neither one of us is right? Maybe anti-X had nothing to do with anything. Maybe the Mormons are just whiners. But, maybe your theory about Huckabee and the Mormon vote is a bizarre fantasy. Frankly, I find your theory the less believable, and I imagine the majority of people would agree with me. I think, in this case, we are right.

[_dartagnan]

I do not recall you showing me any polling information that indicates why Mormons did not vote for Huckabee. What your time at MADB, your Brazilian bishop, and "a Mormon" you talked to said, does not substitute for hard facts.

Well just call me a liar if you wish, but I know my Mormonism. I have been in the Church long enough, and on enough continents, to know that the institutionalized prejudice and hatred, towards traditional Christianity has hardly been "expunged." I see it every week if not every day. I think you're naïve to believe that a few politically correct statements by the Church leadership, could, as if by the wave of a magic wand, remove decades of institutionalized intolerance in the Mormon populace. From the moment Mormons learned Romney was competing with an Evangelical minister, they saw this as a war between God and Satan.

It does not even come close to the more widely held perception in the press that anti-Mormonism was in fact an issue.

Perceptions by those whining about the loss of their candidate, does not constitute hard facts. These articles are based in speculation alone, and I can produce similar articles that speculate the exact opposite. In fact that seemed to be the trend before the primaries. Mormon websites were talking down the impact of anti-Mormonism, saying it wouldn't phase Romney, and even meridian magazine posted a poll that said 91% of Americans said they would vote for a Mormon. Funny how you don't see the disgruntled losers citing that poll anymore, huh?

Show me the poll that indicates that Huckabee being a minister was a real issue for Mormons.

As I said before, I wish there were such a poll, because it would be revealing. But then I think we know Mormons would feel persecuted if they were polled like that.

It does not change the fact that prejudice against Mormonism was not an issue in the campaign.

It was an issue only because journalists need to make it an issue. They dissect anything they can to make "issues" for us. But what you have to do is to show me a reason to believe this had any impact on the election. Dan Peterson and David Bokovoy said that Romeny lost "in part" because of anti-Mormonism. I dare any of you to provide a single piece of evidence that this is true. Romney beat Huckabee in number of votes in the Bible belt states. So where is the "impact" of anti-Mormon influence there? Romney won in all of the counties where the most prominent anti-Mormon ministries are based. So where is the "impact" of anti-Mormon influence? These are simple questions that require simple answers.

Many people outside of Mormonism saw that it would be before the damn thing even got underway.

No, they speculated. They showed nothing and they "saw" what they wanted to see. They saw a convenient scape goat in case their man lost. The simple idea that their candidate wasn't America's choice, was too unappealing. To prop him up as a some kind of victim, was appealing. We see this all the time in politics. If Hillary loses, it will be because she is a woman. If McCain loses, it will be said that American voters don't like old people. If Obama loses, well, we already know the race-baiting that will ensue from that. And the Obama camp can use the white supremacist factions as evidence of anti-negro sentiment, the same as Mormons can try to shine a spotlight on these irrelevant anti-Mormon ministries, who amazingly enough, weren't able to sway voters in their own counties!

Why you feel you need to minimize into obscurity something that was blatantly obvious to most everyone else is beyond me.

It isn't blatantly obvious to everyone else. Again, nobody believes this except Mromons and a few political pundits who are looking to make their fallen candidate a victim. None of them can base their speculations on facts. And you have presented none either.

It seems positively perverse.

Not nearly as perverse as your rejection of specific anecdotal experiences, in favor of a couple of perceptions expressed on blogs. Do you really think I am making this stuff up?

I have no idea why Mormons should give a pass to the people who proliferate or tolerate anti-Mormon rhetoric.

Huckabee never stood a chance with Mormons even before that silly incident with the NYT journalist.

Maybe what Mormons have a problem with is a non-Mormon who publicly misrepresents their beliefs in an unflattering way to win votes.

Huckabee did no such thing. Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers. That isn't a misrepresentation at all. It is a fact. If Mormons feel further explanation is in order, then they are free to provide. But they refuse, because they prefer to play the victim card and insist they are being misrepresented. It is the same crap they pull when critics provide arguments they don't like.

Who cares whether it worked?

I do, because it didn't and others keep insisting it did.

The man is a class A bigot and deserves to lose.

The facts show that he is no more a bigot than Romney.

I wonder how many Mormons would have voted for this kind of person, even if he were not a minister!

Now you're just being naïve. The fact that he is a minister precludes him from gaining favor among Mormons. Again, I know the Mormon mindset about protestant ministers, even if you don't. I can provide numerous examples and point to numerous online discussions proving my point, but you'll apparently sweep it under the rug and say those aren't facts, while humorously taking for granted any speculation presented as fact in a silly political blog.

Still, give me the poll that shows that Huckabee being a minion of Satan was a factor in Mormon voting!

that's not fair now is it? Mormons were not polled on whether they would vote for an Evangelical minister now were they? But we can see the numbers in Utah and its border states, to see the truth of that anyway.

Could it be that neither one of us is right? Maybe anti-X had nothing to do with anything.

Again I say, if Romney had won the entire south eastern section of the country, he still would be losing. In order to say the bigotry in the south was "in part" due to his failure, one must first demosntrate how winning those delegates would have "in part" contributed to a victory.

Maybe the Mormons are just whiners.

Do you seriously doubt this? They play victim at every opportunity. They know no other role in life.

But, maybe your theory about Huckabee and the Mormon vote is a bizarre fantasy. Frankly, I find your theory the less believable, and I imagine the majority of people would agree with me. I think, in this case, we are right.

Anything is possible. It could be that I have accidentally run across teh unique bigots in the Church from every continent, and that these were always the exceptions. Is that likely? I don't think so. I think anyone remotely familiar with Mormon culture and the hatred that is created towards those dastard ministers, will realize my theory is the more likely one. I think your judgment has been clouded by your obvious distaste for Huckabee, and perhaps Evangelical ministers as a whole. Was that something you picked up with Mormonism too?

[_antishock8]

Oh my god. What is it with Mormons and this never-ending ability to produce arguments based on erroneous assumptions/fantastic notions?

Mopologist: Anti-Mormons got rid of Romney! Bastards.

Rationalist: Not so much. EV's show a much higher propensity to vote for a Mormon than a Mormon does to vote for an EV. In fact, in Utah the EV came in dead last. At least Romney won some delegates in EV states.

Mopologist: I'm still right, asshole.

*Queue circus music*