Credentials

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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

charity wrote:
We have settled the fact that your characterization of his credentials and his apologetics is inaccurate. Check out his publications. They fit very well with his degrees in Greek, philsophy, and Near Eastern languages and cultures. Add to that that runtu thinks that experience in general Church callings, which Dr. Peterson has had, and lifelong study of Book of Mormon and Church history also qualifies one for apologetics, and I think the bases are pretty well covered.

You can argue with runtu over his ideas. I think the academic degrees are sufficient.


Do not put words into my mouth. I do not believe that church callings qualify anyone for apologetics. I did not say anything like that, and I don't appreciate you misrepresenting me.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_charity
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Post by _charity »

dartagnan wrote:
Have you read the article, Kevin?

I have, and its crap. Morris is clearly lying or he is out of touch with scholarship if he thinks Ritner is doing anything out of the norm. Again, Ritner is a world class scholar who is more in touch with scholarship than Morris will ever be. I can list several examples of scholarly battles that got far more aggressive than anything ritner said or did. John Gee is hiding behind FROB so he doesn't have to deal with his teacher's refutations.


He is lying that Ritner claimed that there were no other translations when they were and any scholar worth his salt should have known it? He is lying that Ritner made a statement in his translation about the blacks and the prieshtood in the Church, which was a totally gratuitious statement? Taking your totally biased attitude and hatred toward the Church, I think all the readers here can see who is closer on target, you or Larry Morris.

dartagnan wrote:[
I guess you don't that David has been a presenter at an ancient languages symposium sponsored by non-LDS

So what? This is hardly abnormal for Brandeis students. Does Bokovoy go on record in his presentations with the apologetic nonsense he presents to his fellow apologists? Of course not. It would be academic suicide and he knows it. Ultimately, a scholars arguments have to be judged on their merits, which is why it is easy for non-scholars to refute scholarly arguments by simply providing scholarship that refutes it. When Bokovoy and I debate, I never rely on my own authority, I rely on the authority of those who Trump him. Oftentimes Bokovoy is left with little more than saying, "Well, he was wrong." Gee, that's compelling.


So you are on a par with David, and that is why you have been asked to present at just what symposia? Please tell us so we will be suitably impressed.
dartagnan wrote:[
And this also, despite the fact that he hasn't yet even received his ph. d. That gives him quite a bit of crediblity in his field. You sound jealous.

And you sound stupid. Again, you are out of touch with scholarship if you think this is out of the norm. Presentations are not provided strictly by those holding doctorates. Who told you that? Bokovoy is attending a school with a lot of political sway in the field. He isn't the first student of Marc Brettler to get published before receiving his doctorate, and he won't be the last.


It is certainly unusual in the fields I am acquatined with. But you still haven't told us where you have been asked to present?
dartagnan wrote:[
No, I did not come to the Book of Mormon assumiing it is of divine origin. I grew to adulthood as non-LDS.

All Mormons begin with that assumption, which makes all their subsequent commentary biased to the extreme. It is just as valuable and worthless as the critic's. No matter what evidence points the other direction, they either reject it or reinterpret it in a manner that doesn't threaten their faith. Again, Bokovoy's recent paradigm shift manifesto proves how anti-intelectual and fallacious Mormon thought really is.


At least the convert population approaches the Book of Mormon from a different point of view than you suggest. But you don't want to acknowledge that, because it shoots your argument down.
dartagnan wrote:[
Kevin, you know what you are saying is garbage. There was NEVER any revealation, official statement from the First Presidency, no canonized scripture that located the Book of Mormon lands in any specific latittude and longitude. There still isn't.

There never needed to be either. The nonsense about how doctrine is only that which is "revealed" or canonized, is a modern invention by apologists. Joseph Smith clearly believed in the Hemispheric model and so did his successors. He never had to canonize something for it to be understood as fact. He claimed to have found the body of a dead Lamanite for crying out loud. These were not just their opinions, these were claims stated as fact that were accepted by the Church as a whole. Only recently do we see people begin to move away from the absolute certainty of the HM. The fact that you would preten nobody argues for it, just goes to show how dishonest Mormons can be. You're lying for your faith and you know it.


Stamdard anti-Mormon strategy. If you can't face the truth, call the person a liar. That gets pretty tired. And it is so transparent.

dartagnan wrote:[
Can you tell us why you chose to ignore one set and emphasize the other? Could it possibly be that you select whatyou want to use to try to make your argument?

I'm not talking about the opinions of 20th century theorists. I am talking about the statements of fact by the earliest general authorities, all of whom accepted the HM without question.


Statements of OPINIONS. I wouldn't think you would need to be tutored in what are facts and what are opinions, but I guess you must considering this silly paragraph.

A person who makes a statement as though it were a fact, with nothing concrete to back it up is stating an OPINION.
A person who presents a finding with evidence is stating FACTS. Does that help?
dartagnan wrote:[
Why does the truth bother you? You come across as being very rigid. Pretty fundamentalist. That's probably what caused you to apostatize.

No, being involved with too many anti-critical thinkers and idiots like yourself is what helped push me out of the Church. You have presented no "truth" for me to accept or reject. All you have is what you can dig up at FARMS. You do this all the time.


Again the whiney baby, "It's all your fault" argument. Give me a break.
dartagnan wrote:[
People who do this also have difficulty in handling other concepts such as fallible prophets and continuing revelation.

Sorry, but people aren't told about how the prophet can make serious mistakes like these when joining the Church. Instead, they're told that the Mormon Church is different because it is led by God through prophets who would never lead the Church astray. Continuing revelation was never understood as an attempt to turn old doctrine completely on its head. You guys are abusing LDS history to suit your own apologetic agenda, which is essentially to try defending the untenable.


The Prophet reveals doctrines of salvation. It is people, such as yourself, who get hung up on the non-salvific matters who are sadly, and even tragically, off track. The locaiton of the Book of Mormon lands was NEVER doctrine. If this is what caused your fall from faith, that is especially tragic. I guess you never understood what doctrine was. And a smart guy like you? I don't know how you missed it.
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Charity, i can't help but intrude. You said, into which i inject my comments in bold:

"... Instead, (people are) told that the Mormon Church is different because it is led by God through prophets RM: This is simply a subjective statement. There is absolutely no credible evidence that this is true. who would never lead the Church astray. RM: How is one to understand "astray"? Continuing revelation was never understood as an attempt to turn old doctrine completely on its head. You guys are abusing LDS history to suit your own apologetic agenda, which is essentially to try defending the untenable. RM: And what is your defence of the "untenable" as others view your positions?



Charity surely you are not in ignorance of the obvious changes in LDS policies, practices, rituals and doctrines that have influenced LDS attitudes and life styles today to differ considerably from the past. If it is not "ignorance" then it must be 'denial'. I'm not sure which of the two is to be preferred? Please advise. Roger
_cksalmon
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Post by _cksalmon »

charity wrote:Statements of OPINIONS. I wouldn't think you would need to be tutored in what are facts and what are opinions, but I guess you must considering this silly paragraph.


(1) FACT: the Church true.
(2) STATEMENTS OF OPINION: anything spoken or written by past LDS leaders that calls (1) into question.

That seems to be what I see in certain revisionist approaches to LDS history and "doctrine."
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Roger Morrison wrote:Charity, I can't help but intrude. You said, into which I inject my comments in bold:

"... Instead, (people are) told that the Mormon Church is different because it is led by God through prophets RM: This is simply a subjective statement. There is absolutely no credible evidence that this is true. who would never lead the Church astray. RM: How is one to understand "astray"? Continuing revelation was never understood as an attempt to turn old doctrine completely on its head. You guys are abusing LDS history to suit your own apologetic agenda, which is essentially to try defending the untenable. RM: And what is your defence of the "untenable" as others view your positions?



I didn't say that. Kevin (dartagnan) said it. I know that the quote thing gets confusing.

Roger Morrison wrote:
Charity surely you are not in ignorance of the obvious changes in LDS policies, practices, rituals and doctrines that have influenced LDS attitudes and life styles today to differ considerably from the past. If it is not "ignorance" then it must be 'denial'. I'm not sure which of the two is to be preferred? Please advise. Roger


I know that there have been changes in policies, practices, rituals and doctrine. This is a living, dynamic Church, with living prohpets and continuing revelation. That is the whole purpose. I don't know that we would agree on where the changes came. If you were to say there were changes in the endowment, I would say there were changes in the presentaiton of the endowment, for instance.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

He is lying that Ritner claimed that there were no other translations when they were and any scholar worth his salt should have known it?

Morris admits that Rhodes' work was "in progress" in early 2000, but that it wasn't published until July of 2002. He complains because Ritner didn't mention Rhodes' translation in his 2003 publication a year later.

So what?

Just as it took Rhodes a couple of years to finish his final maunscript for his translation, Ritner was likely working much longer on his JNES publication. And it seems clear that this was a minor point anyway. Since its discovery in 1967, nobody had provided any formal edition of the Joseph Smith Book of Breathing combining full translation and transliteration, until Rhodes published his in 2002.

This is not an important point since the Rhodes translation doesn't provide any apologetic significance. Morris' point is that "Ritner's failure to mention The Hor Book of Breathings is an indication that he has not been keeping up with the current research," but he hasn't considered the fact that Rhodes is not even an Egyptologist to begin with. To expect someone of Ritner's academic stature to keep tabs on a publication record of a self proclaimed expert in Egyptology, is a bit silly. Teh most prominent Mormon Egyptologist is Ritner's student, John Gee. And Ritner finds his scholarship to be laughable apologetic nonsense. How much more would he ignore a Mormon who isn't even an Egyptologist at all?
He is lying that Ritner made a statement in his translation about the blacks and the prieshtood in the Church, which was a totally gratuitious statement?

It was a totally factual statement. You only have a problem because Morris has a problem with it, but scholars familiar with scholarship don't have a problem with it. So why should I have a problem with it? Morris wants to dictate the boundaries in which critics can offer criticism. What utter nonsense.
Taking your totally biased attitude and hatred toward the Church

As opposed to your totally biased and deification of the Church?
I think all the readers here can see who is closer on target, you or Larry Morris.

No you don't. That is why FARMS tries to get people like Morris to write up this tripe. He addressed not a single issue that dealt with the apologetic issue. Instead he spent all his time nit-picking little things he didn't like about "tone." Gee, that's original.
So you are on a par with David

As far as knowledge of Hebrew? Of course not. As far as being able to argue points and reaching reasonable conclusions unclouded by theological bias? I'm way ahead of him. I have produced several debates with Bokovoy, and I stand by all of them. I'll let the readers decide if his status at Brandeis will outweigh his inability to successfully argue his points.
and that is why you have been asked to present at just what symposia?

Well, his apologetic tendencies certainly aren't why he has been invited. This is the thing I despise about Mormons in academia. Ignorant followers seem to think it adds credibility to their faith if certain members can actually get doctorate degress and rack up academic feathers in their cap. People like Gee went into Egyptology for the sole purpose of trying to defend Joseph Smith. I'm beginning to think Bokovoy's fascination with Hebrew is along those same lines. Virtually everything they produce has some kind of Mormon twist to it.
It is certainly unusual in the fields I am acquatined with. But you still haven't told us where you have been asked to present?

You're not acquainted with scholarship at all, so stop kidding yourself. And who said I was ever asked to give presentations? You're beating up a straw man or either trying to get a rise out of me. It won't work. I'm proud of the fact that I have not become a whore to academia.
At least the convert population approaches the Book of Mormon from a different point of view than you suggest. But you don't want to acknowledge that, because it shoots your argument down.

We all know the convert population is misled and coerced into baptism, long before they have a firm grasp of the basics. Missionaries try to get people committed after the second discussion for crying out loud. The idea is to get them in officially, so whatever troubling facts they find out later, is no longer on their heads. If the member leaves - which is often the case since most members do leave shortly afterwards - then they become apostates and the subject of ridicule by bigots like yourself.
Stamdard anti-Mormon strategy. If you can't face the truth, call the person a liar. That gets pretty tired. And it is so transparent.

Then Mormons must be some of the best anti-Mormons around. They love to accuse the critics of lying. The difference is, we all know when you guys are lying for the Lord. You think it is in your best "spiritual" interest to do so.
Statements of OPINIONS.

Nobody called Joseph Smith's statements of fact, "opinions" until people like you came around and tried to pull the historical wool over our eyes. Calling them mere opinions doesn't change the fact that they were accepted as fact. Stop with the deception tactics, nobody here is stupid enough to buy into them.
A person who makes a statement as though it were a fact, with nothing concrete to back it up is stating an OPINION.
A person who presents a finding with evidence is stating FACTS. Does that help?

It certainly doesn't help you, since virtually everything the Church teaches must be "opinion." Virtually none of it is supported with anything concrete. Back in the early days of the Church, Joseph Smith's beliefs about the Book of Mormon were understood as fact. We know this. Historians know this. Historians know the HM was the dominant view throughout the last two centuries. But people like you dismiss and ignore this because you're only interested in deceiving your audience. You simply can't handle the truth.
The Prophet reveals doctrines of salvation. It is people, such as yourself, who get hung up on the non-salvific matters who are sadly, and even tragically, off track.

That is a crappy apologetic that likes to assume all the tuff issues are based on "non-salvific matters." That doesn't wash, since Brigham Young and Joseph Smith said it pertained to our salvation to know the character of God, to know he was once a man, to know he was Adam, to know polygamy was commanded of us all, etc. Yet "continuing revelation" by the non-prophets of the Church, turn all of that on its head while the anti-critical nimrods like yourself simply accept it without question. That's pathetic.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_sunstoned
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Post by _sunstoned »

charity wrote:
harmony wrote:Dr Peterson's PhD in Arabic Studies has nothing to do with Mormon Apologetics or Mormon Studies.


Yes. And what are you saying? There isn't a ph.d. program in "Mormon Apologetics" or "Mormon Studies." What is your point?


There is no advanced degree for Mormon Apologetics. A B.S. degree is all you need.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

There is no advanced degree for Mormon Apologetics. A B.S. degree is all you need.


LOL! Great catch. Kudos for coming up with what was screaming to be said from page one. :O
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

sunstoned wrote:
charity wrote:
harmony wrote:Dr Peterson's PhD in Arabic Studies has nothing to do with Mormon Apologetics or Mormon Studies.


Yes. And what are you saying? There isn't a ph.d. program in "Mormon Apologetics" or "Mormon Studies." What is your point?


There is no advanced degree for Mormon Apologetics. A B.S. degree is all you need.


Well, no wonder Daniel is qualified! So is our own beloved charity.
_charity
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Post by _charity »

dartagnan wrote:Morris admits that Rhodes' work was "in progress" in early 2000, but that it wasn't published until July of 2002. He complains because Ritner didn't mention Rhodes' translation in his 2003 publication a year later.

So what?

Just as it took Rhodes a couple of years to finish his final maunscript for his translation, Ritner was likely working much longer on his JNES publication. And it seems clear that this was a minor point anyway. Since its discovery in 1967, nobody had provided any formal edition of the Joseph Smith Book of Breathing combining full translation and transliteration, until Rhodes published his in 2002.


Just shows sloppy scholarship. Sloppy here, sloppy there. There are patterns.

dartagnan wrote:
He is lying that Ritner made a statement in his translation about the blacks and the prieshtood in the Church, which was a totally gratuitious statement?

It was a totally factual statement. You only have a problem because Morris has a problem with it, but scholars familiar with scholarship don't have a problem with it. So why should I have a problem with it? Morris wants to dictate the boundaries in which critics can offer criticism. What utter nonsense.


Factual but irrelevant to the translation. So why put it in, except, of course, it shows his total anti-Mormon bias. And then that makes his translation suspect. If he hates Mormons, wants to discredit Mormons, then a translation of the Book of Breathings can show that bias.

dartagnan wrote:
Taking your totally biased attitude and hatred toward the Church

As opposed to your totally biased and deification of the Church?


Except I am not pretending to translate a document. Ritner was.


dartagnan wrote:
So you are on a par with David

As far as knowledge of Hebrew? Of course not. As far as being able to argue points and reaching reasonable conclusions unclouded by theological bias? I'm way ahead of him. I have produced several debates with Bokovoy, and I stand by all of them. I'll let the readers decide if his status at Brandeis will outweigh his inability to successfully argue his points.


If as in the case with discussions with me you regularly retreat into name calling I don't take your word for it that you have bested David in anything.

dartagnan wrote:
and that is why you have been asked to present at just what symposia?

Well, his apologetic tendencies certainly aren't why he has been invited. This is the thing I despise about Mormons in academia. Ignorant followers seem to think it adds credibility to their faith if certain members can actually get doctorate degress and rack up academic feathers in their cap. People like Gee went into Egyptology for the sole purpose of trying to defend Joseph Smith. I'm beginning to think Bokovoy's fascination with Hebrew is along those same lines. Virtually everything they produce has some kind of Mormon twist to it.


You just proved my point. No, it wasn't apologetics where David presented his material. It was before an audience of non-LDS. You are sounding more jealous and sour grapes all the time.

dartagnan wrote:
It is certainly unusual in the fields I am acquatined with. But you still haven't told us where you have been asked to present?

You're not acquainted with scholarship at all, so stop kidding yourself. And who said I was ever asked to give presentations? You're beating up a straw man or either trying to get a rise out of me. It won't work. I'm proud of the fact that I have not become a whore to academia.


This is typical of people who don't have degrees and reputations to think that those that do so have sold out. Assuages their prides.
dartagnan wrote:
At least the convert population approaches the Book of Mormon from a different point of view than you suggest. But you don't want to acknowledge that, because it shoots your argument down.

We all know the convert population is misled and coerced into baptism, long before they have a firm grasp of the basics. Missionaries try to get people committed after the second discussion for crying out loud. The idea is to get them in officially, so whatever troubling facts they find out later, is no longer on their heads. If the member leaves - which is often the case since most members do leave shortly afterwards - then they become apostates and the subject of ridicule by bigots like yourself.


More name calling and derogatory statements. Your disdain for sincere people of faith is very telling. But if you can't keep up, at least be civil.

dartagnan wrote:
Stamdard anti-Mormon strategy. If you can't face the truth, call the person a liar. That gets pretty tired. And it is so transparent.

Then Mormons must be some of the best anti-Mormons around. They love to accuse the critics of lying. The difference is, we all know when you guys are lying for the Lord. You think it is in your best "spiritual" interest to do so.


And who told you to fling that "lying for the Lord" line around? I think it was Walter Martin that invented it. You know, the guy who only lied about his "doctorate."
dartagnan wrote:
Statements of OPINIONS.

Nobody called Joseph Smith's statements of fact, "opinions" until people like you came around and tried to pull the historical wool over our eyes. Calling them mere opinions doesn't change the fact that they were accepted as fact. Stop with the deception tactics, nobody here is stupid enough to buy into them.


Keep saying that over and over. Fundamentalists do cling to the black and white, nothing ever changes line.

dartagnan wrote:
A person who makes a statement as though it were a fact, with nothing concrete to back it up is stating an OPINION.
A person who presents a finding with evidence is stating FACTS. Does that help?

It certainly doesn't help you, since virtually everything the Church teaches must be "opinion." Virtually none of it is supported with anything concrete. Back in the early days of the Church, Joseph Smith's beliefs about the Book of Mormon were understood as fact. We know this. Historians know this. Historians know the HM was the dominant view throughout the last two centuries. But people like you dismiss and ignore this because you're only interested in deceiving your audience. You simply can't handle the truth.


Unlike you, I can tell what is opinion and what is fact. You seem to have trouble here. Must be a big problem in dealing with the world.

dartagnan wrote:
The Prophet reveals doctrines of salvation. It is people, such as yourself, who get hung up on the non-salvific matters who are sadly, and even tragically, off track.

That is a crappy apologetic that likes to assume all the tuff issues are based on "non-salvific matters." That doesn't wash, since Brigham Young and Joseph Smith said it pertained to our salvation to know the character of God, to know he was once a man, to know he was Adam, to know polygamy was commanded of us all, etc. Yet "continuing revelation" by the non-prophets of the Church, turn all of that on its head while the anti-critical nimrods like yourself simply accept it without question. That's pathetic.


Fundamentalist viewpoint, Kevin. Sort of concrete operational thought. On the other hand, I can understand abstract concepts and see where universal prciniples apply, not just little mortal rules.

Your name calling shows the weakness of your arguments. The winner in a fight is the guy whose argument is strong enough he can remain civil.
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