Foucault, the Disciplines, and God as the Watcher

[_Mister Scratch]

Here's a worthwhile, "intellectually serious" question:

Has Coggins even bothered to read Discipline & Punish? I'm guessing, "No," since it wasn't reviewed in frontpagemag.com.

[_Coggins7]

Here's a worthwhile, "intellectually serious" question:

Has Coggins even bothered to read Discipline & Punish? I'm guessing, "No," since it wasn't reviewed in frontpagemag.com.

I'll pick that up when I have the time within my busy reading schedule (I'm reading The Importance of Living, by Lin Yu Tang right now, a lapsed Christian who described himself in this book, written in 1937, as a "pagan").

In the mean time, have you read The Road to Serfdom yet? I'm still working on Human Action, but I keep getting sidetracked.

Given that Foucault is the only author Scratch seems to actually be familiar with, the above questions are probably moot. I'll be frank that I don't take Foucault particularly seriously in the sense of his being a serious thinker, although he must be taken seriously due to his effect on western philosophy and the Academy.

[_Moniker]

But a further mechanism that can be used for surveillance and observation is the ideal of God. An all knowing all seeing invisible entity that has control over our ultimate fate (salvation in the afterlife in Abrahamic faiths). God is the ultimate surveillance and observation tool that can be used by society to deter the worst behavior. Say that God thinks killing is bad, and the spectre of an all knowing watchdog is a excellent coercion tool. As long as the fear of God (an all powerful force that can’t be proven or disproved) exists then God will be a useful tool in the disciplining and control of society.

Just a thought while I'm snowed in.

Right, I'm snowed in too (all 1/10 of an inch that melted within moments) and it closed schools here.

I think this is somewhat like EAllusions thoughts on an alien race watching us and we have to jump through certain hoops so that we avert their wrath. When God takes intrinsic motivations of being a "decent" human out of the equation I think it can irreparably harm society. I'm so often surprised at the sentiments expressed that those with faith believe that without this external control they really would be pillaging, raping, and whatnot.

Uhoh. I am becoming such an angry, ugly, atheist. oh dear.

Coggins, I think you have a smutty mind.

[_Moniker]

I don't know if it's so much that we want to give up personal responsibility, more that through dozens of generations we've continued to perpetuate the idea of God, and that it's somewhat built into our society to assume there is a God out there watching over us and watching us for violations of his moral code.

I'm going to comment on this again -- even though Shades link says I'm not supposed to make 2 posts in a row. And here's a *giggle snort* for him too.

Bond, when you say "built into our society" do you mean America? What do you make of predominantly secular societies that have codes of ethics that are incredibly similar the world over. Is this too, you think, related to the idea of a big eye in the sky? I haven't really thought about this that much... I think I need to. :)

That's weird, I thought I posted this link and it disappeared??

Trying it again: http://www.evolutionaryethics.com/

The Evolution of Ethics constructs a conceptual bridge between biology and human behavior. This is accomplished by examining the cultural and biological feedback systems that inspires the evolution of social rules. In theory, a cybernetic process is at the heart of developing ethical systems. This process occurs when biology and culture collide. The resulting conflict acts as a form of "informational feedback" telling people that there are serious problems that need to be resolved. Conflict inspires human adaptation in a way that extends the survival of the species. In this sense, the evolution of ethical systems is a response to the drive of the human species to survive.

[_Coggins7]

Coggins, I think you have a smutty mind.

Look, Foucault was the one with the S&M fetish, not me. And S&M is all about...punishment and discipline, isn't it?

[_Moniker]

Coggins, I think you have a smutty mind.

Look, Foucault was the one with the S&M fetish, not me. And S&M is all about...punishment and discipline, isn't it?

No.

http://www.tangomag.com/200636/sm-for-beginners.html

But, you're the one that thought about it.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Bond, when you say "built into our society" do you mean America? What do you make of predominantly secular societies that have codes of ethics that are incredibly similar the world over. Is this too, you think, related to the idea of a big eye in the sky? I haven't really thought about this that much... I think I need to. :)

It's my theory that we're always effected by our history, no matter how much we would like to deny it. Western Civilization has been intertwined with Christianity for hundreds of years, and despite the past 200+ years of Enlightened thinking we haven't been able to unravel the Christian strands that are so embedded in our social fabric. So when I mean "built into our society" I guess I mean all societies decended from the Abrahamic faiths. Yes Muslim culture has schismed off toward a much more repressive theocratic bent, but at heart Muslim and Christian descended cultures are more similar than Asian cultures on the issue of God, namely the belief in one God (whether he's called Yahweh or Allah or Jesus or whatever) who has been very anthropomorphized, including the ability to see and know his subjects actions and thoughts.

I think most secular societies are a continuation of Jesus's example, namely erring on the side of tolerance. Tolerance is the key to most secular thinking right? Freedom of speech requires tolerance of ideas often disagreed with. All freedoms of behavior require tolerance on the part of the rest of society. God is taken out of the equation as the force from which we draw our power (instead power is given by the people to a govt) but tolerance remains a central force to secular culture.

[_Gazelam]

Bond,

This gets me thinking about the verse in Abraham that states that this fallen world was brought about "To see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them"

So we are in fact here to se if we will be obedient,

What kind of God is this that you describe? Out of all the human traits, talents and possibilities, God is on the hunt for people who will do what ever he wants no questions asked? That's not a benevolent being, that's a crime boss.

If your parent tells oyu not to touch fire because it will burn you, is that wrong?

God is God because he knows all things. He knows that Lieing to each other creates Chaos. He knws the most importyant thign in the world is to be trustworthy. he knows that a stable home enviorment is important. he knows that frivilous relationships and bedhopping is destructive.

Just like when we get burned by putting our hands in fire, there are universal truths of cause and effect that result from our actions and decisions. We are merely being taught throughout our lives how to recognize these truths.

Is this really that difficult to understand?

[_Moniker]

Bond,

This gets me thinking about the verse in Abraham that states that this fallen world was brought about "To see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them"

So we are in fact here to se if we will be obedient,

What kind of God is this that you describe? Out of all the human traits, talents and possibilities, God is on the hunt for people who will do what ever he wants no questions asked? That's not a benevolent being, that's a crime boss.

If your parent tells oyu not to touch fire because it will burn you, is that wrong?

God is God because he knows all things. He knows that Lieing to each other creates Chaos. He knws the most importyant thign in the world is to be trustworthy. he knows that a stable home enviorment is important. he knows that frivilous relationships and bedhopping is destructive.

Well, how come I learned that honesty is an admirable trait even without God as part of the equation? We have evolved to be where we are in terms of dealing with other humans. Without certain traits that perpetuate our species we would not have survived -- certain traits allow us to navigate in this world safely and ensure our offspring have a good chance of survival -- you don't need God for this. Perhaps HUMANS understood that a stable home is important? Perhaps HUMANS understood that monogamous relationships ensure a healthy environment for children and ensured that within this environment that these children have a higher likelihood of success? OR is it that the humans that exhibited these traits of monogamy, empathy, and other traits that ensured they navigated safely in their environment when dealing with other humans were more likely to survive and passed these traits on to their children? Why do we need God to understand how to be safe or deal with our fellow humans?

Just like when we get burned by putting our hands in fire, there are universal truths of cause and effect that result from our actions and decisions. We are merely being taught throughout our lives how to recognize these truths.

Is this really that difficult to understand?

Yet, how are we taught these things, Gaz? Did God really tap you on the shoulder and let you know what things bring you ease in life and which cause pain? Perhaps there is a trial and error :) and from these trial and errors we instinctively consider how we are impacted by our actions and those actions of others?

I don't know -- is that difficult to understand?

What do you make of atheists that don't need that God eye in the sky watching and evaluating their moves that still are "decent" humans?

Did our ethics and morals come from God -- or did we assign them to God?

[_Moniker]

Bond, when you say "built into our society" do you mean America? What do you make of predominantly secular societies that have codes of ethics that are incredibly similar the world over. Is this too, you think, related to the idea of a big eye in the sky? I haven't really thought about this that much... I think I need to. :)

It's my theory that we're always effected by our history, no matter how much we would like to deny it. Western Civilization has been intertwined with Christianity for hundreds of years, and despite the past 200+ years of Enlightened thinking we haven't been able to unravel the Christian strands that are so embedded in our social fabric. So when I mean "built into our society" I guess I mean all societies decended from the Abrahamic faiths. Yes Muslim culture has schismed off toward a much more repressive theocratic bent, but at heart Muslim and Christian descended cultures are more similar than Asian cultures on the issue of God, namely the belief in one God (whether he's called Yahweh or Allah or Jesus or whatever) who has been very anthropomorphized, including the ability to see and know his subjects actions and thoughts.

I see what you're getting at. Yet, I think that we placed these traits upon God. These are HUMAN traits that we assigned to God to make him reflect who WE are.

So what of cultures where there isn't the history of the Abrahamic faiths that still have ethical mores that deal with fundamental "right and wrongs"? It's not built into our society because of faith or religion -- religion is just a reflection of these human traits-- imho.