skippy the dead wrote: Thanks for the reply. I'll agree that it's not an easy question - that's why I asked. I'd suppose that on this basis, there may be more people in your acquaintance that have "left" the church for historical issues than you may know.
For additional perspective, for me it was a combination of philosophical and doctrinal issues. Both were colored by historic origins, if that makes sense. In other words, I could not see the divine in certain things that I questioned, based in part on the events that lead to those things.
I suppose that only serves to muddy the waters further in trying to categorize various reasons for leaving.
I am trying to play nice, but you are making it hard. So, when I give you a list of reasons why I KNOW people have left the Church, you come back and make an assumption that historical issues play a bigger part than I know? I would say you have no basis to make that assumption. Except that generally anti-Mormons and critics like to think that.
I thought I was also playing nice. I had asked the original question since you listed the 4 people you knew who were with excommunicated or resigned and their reasons for "leaving." Based on your own description of what "leaving" can mean, I was only pointing out that you may actually know more people who have "left" (who weren't ex'ed or hadn't resigned) who may have had other issues. I wasn't trying to say that you actually knew all the reasons for every person you'd ever known that might have left the church.
I also was agreeing that it was a difficult question to answer, and I tried so show why I agreed. No malice on my part at all, truly. So I'm a bit surprised by the response.
(edited to remove stray tag)
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
skippy the dead wrote: Thanks for the reply. I'll agree that it's not an easy question - that's why I asked. I'd suppose that on this basis, there may be more people in your acquaintance that have "left" the church for historical issues than you may know.
For additional perspective, for me it was a combination of philosophical and doctrinal issues. Both were colored by historic origins, if that makes sense. In other words, I could not see the divine in certain things that I questioned, based in part on the events that lead to those things.
I suppose that only serves to muddy the waters further in trying to categorize various reasons for leaving.
I am trying to play nice, but you are making it hard. So, when I give you a list of reasons why I KNOW people have left the Church, you come back and make an assumption that historical issues play a bigger part than I know? I would say you have no basis to make that assumption. Except that generally anti-Mormons and critics like to think that.
Here's the thing Charity -- having observed how you discuss issues here, I think it's feasible that you "heard" what the people said about why they "left" the church and interpolated it the way you have. I would guess that if I talked to them, and asked them if/why they no longer believe, I would get a different response.
As an example, most of my "ward-members" probably look at my situation and say I left because of sin. What they saw was that I started drinking alcohol, then my wife and I divorced, and I left the church.
What really happened was that I studied with Grant, was convinced the church claims were not true, so felt comfortable to not "obey" the WoW anymore, started drinking, etc... So I can imagine many would say they "know" I left because of sin.
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
BishopRic wrote:As an example, most of my "ward-members" probably look at my situation and say I left because of sin. What they saw was that I started drinking alcohol, then my wife and I divorced, and I left the church.
Quite a familiar pattern. I'll bet that many male posters on this Board are divorced and left the church after their divorce. Feelings of failure and inadequacy in one most important part of a life -- important as far as God is concerned -- causes many to just pitch it all. Failing in marriage --- gee, why try? Might as well get lickered up or enjoy that bong hit. It happens in good Catholic and Evangelical households.
An additional fact to add to your description is then resort to this Board and Boards like it. To find the same sense of community they had while married and in the Church. Except, now, it is to throw turds on the synagogue.
BishopRic wrote:As an example, most of my "ward-members" probably look at my situation and say I left because of sin. What they saw was that I started drinking alcohol, then my wife and I divorced, and I left the church.
Quite a familiar pattern. I'll bet that many male posters on this Board are divorced and left the church after their divorce. Feelings of failure and inadequacy in one most important part of a life -- important as far as God is concerned -- causes many to just pitch it all. Failing in marriage --- gee, why try? Might as well get lickered up or enjoy that bong hit. It happens in good Catholic and Evangelical households.
An additional fact to add to your description is then resort to this Board and Boards like it. To find the same sense of community they had while married and in the Church. Except, now, it is to throw turds on the synagogue.
Nice imagination. I guess you didn't read the rest of the story? Or perhaps like Charity, refuse to see that a person would ever leave for reasons that there is just no longer any way to believe in Joseph's Myth?
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
I don't think people are lured away so much as they start looking for reasons to leave.
You can't seem to let this go.... Please take note:
People do not disbelieve the truth claims of the LDS church because Satan lures them away.
Could you please read what I said I don't think people are lured away....." It is only a couple of lines above this.
People do not disbelieve the the church because they are looking for reasons to leave. Just as I was chastised for making statements about why I thought people left, you should be a little more humble about such pronouncments. I am sure some, if not many, do.People do not disbelieve the church because of sin.
People do not disbelieve the church because they get offended. They may not disbelieve, but they do leave. I have heard stories from people who said that was why they did. I beleive them. People leave the church because they disbelieve the truth claims of the church.
I'm sure many do. But that isn't the only reason. ~dancer~
BishopRic wrote:As an example, most of my "ward-members" probably look at my situation and say I left because of sin. What they saw was that I started drinking alcohol, then my wife and I divorced, and I left the church.
Quite a familiar pattern. I'll bet that many male posters on this Board are divorced and left the church after their divorce. Feelings of failure and inadequacy in one most important part of a life -- important as far as God is concerned -- causes many to just pitch it all. Failing in marriage --- gee, why try? Might as well get lickered up or enjoy that bong hit. It happens in good Catholic and Evangelical households.
An additional fact to add to your description is then resort to this Board and Boards like it. To find the same sense of community they had while married and in the Church. Except, now, it is to throw turds on the synagogue.
And you are here why? Apart from the fact that your nasty way of talking about others might make your life uncomfortable were you in physical reach of the people you are talking about ... so you have to throw your [the word you used] on an internet chat board.
Chap wrote: And you are here why? Apart from the fact that your nasty way of talking about others might make your life uncomfortable were you in physical reach of the people you are talking about ... so you have to throw your [the word you used] on an internet chat board.
Yuk!
Well, I try not to be nasty. I think that sometimes some of things I say tend to offend because I am a little blunt, and for that I'll apologize.
I think I have respect for men who suffer a divorce and have difficulty in other parts of their lives. (I also see as a familiar pattern an attempt to then blame the Church for the divorce -- but similar fact patterns exist in other cultures; men just want to point to finger of blame at persons other than themselves; oh so typical; manhood and virility at stake. Getting divorced is almost as bad as getting cuckolded, wouldn't ya say?)
I don't have a whole lot respect for folks who anonymously come on to internet boards and champion their credentials as an academic -- top ten school, etc. etc. I mean, why? It is kinda like bragging about one's Second Life scenario, isn't it?
beastie wrote:Who cares who you or anyone else knows personally, in real life, who left the church, and why. For every person you KNOW who left the church, and you (supposedly) KNOW the reasons why, there is at least one other who left without your notice or knowledge, and who left for doctrinal/historical/theological reasons.
Can you give me a source for this very definite statement? You know the categories of reasons why people leave, and that at least half are for reasons dealing with doctrinal/histroical/theological reasons? CFR.
beastie wrote:And, by the way, the "nice" ones you are sure would never say anything critical about Mormonism just may be posting here or at RFM. People who know ME in real life would never suspect I post on the internet about Mormonism.
I know quite a few people who aren't "nice." And not all of them inhabit this board. And geneerally I assume people are honest and upfront, and don't do one thing in public and another in private.
rcrocket wrote:I don't have a whole lot respect for folks who anonymously come on to internet boards and champion their credentials as an academic -- top ten school, etc. etc. I mean, why? It is kinda like bragging about one's Second Life scenario, isn't it?
Would you say that it's like boasting about being summa cum laude, and then purging that from your resume? Or, would it be like unscrupulously doctoring a quote from one's MMM article, in order to try and smear the opposition?