FAIR releases online videos

[_ludwigm]

I have PMed the material to Beastie. (horses in graves in the hungarian area)
She will know which part is worth to use.

It was an interesting experience to me, something unknown as yet.

[_beastie]

Thanks, ludwig - I just finished writing up the Schmidt update and am getting ready to work on your references. I'm not going to upload these changes to my website until I'm finished with all of it. I'll come back and report when I'm ready to do so. In the meantime, here's what I'm going to say about Schmidt:

Thanks to the help of Chris Smith, who provided scans of the text, and John Williams, who translated the text from Spanish, I was able to obtain the pertinent sections of the Peter Schmidt text. First, let’s review the portion of the previously quoted Peterson essay that refers to this research:

“It took until 1977 before that recommendation bore fruit. Two Mexican archaeologists carried out a project that included a complete survey of the complex system of subterranean cavities (made by underground water that had dissolved the subsurface limestone). They also did stratigraphic excavation in areas in the Loltun complex not previously visited. The pits they excavated revealed a sequence of 16 layers, which they numbered from the surface downward. Bones of extinct animals (including mammoth) appear in the lowest layers.

Pottery and other cultural materials were found in levels VII and above. But in some of those artifact-bearing strata there were horse bones, even in level II. A radiocarbon date for the beginning of VII turned out to be around 1800 BC. The pottery fragments above that would place some portions in the range of at least 900–400 BC and possibly later. The report on this work concludes with the observation that "something went on here that is still difficult to explain." Some archaeologists have suggested that the horse bones were stirred upward from lower to higher levels by the action of tunneling rodents, but they admit that this explanation is not easy to accept. The statement has also been made that paleontologists will not be pleased at the idea that horses survived to such a late date as to be involved with civilized or near-civilized people whose remains are seen in the ceramic-using levels. Surprisingly, the Mexican researchers show no awareness of the horse teeth discovered in 1957 by Carnegie Institution scientists Pollock and Ray. (Some uncomfortable scientific facts seem to need rediscovering time and time again.)”

Now here’s the pertinent section from the Schmidt research, with important sections bolded:


”Critical for associating human industry with pleistocene fauna is layer VIII, where there is no ceramic but where lithic tools and many horse remains appear. But unfortunately there are horse [remains] in layers VII and VI and also a very small quantity in layer V, all three containing ceramics.

Obviously there is some disturbance in these layers. Rodents as well as the most common mammals from the cave stand out in studies of the cave's fauna.

The only radiocarbon dating published (1805 +- 150) BC was taken using a combined sample of various pieces of charcoal and belongs to the area of contact between layers VII and VIII.

The stratigraphic and faunal analyses clearly establish that the excavated sediments must have accumulated from the Pleistocene era to the present, with heavy interference at least from layer VII on up. Only layer VIII remains a possible area of occurrence of both lithic material and pleistocene bones in a primary context. Unfortunately in neither this layer or others is there direct association of human tools with the bones, nor are there homes where charcoal or bones were clearly used or worked. The same is true with layer VII (El Tunel) (p 253).”


[After discussing flora found in the cave]. The situation in terms of fauna is more complicated. The majority of the animals discovered are represented since the Pleistocene era, having their origins in some of the neo-arctic and neotropical fauna. Studying in detail only the rodents, a sequence of types of vegetation the caves' surroundings was established that is very similar to that accomplished by means of pollen: layers before XIII-B, grassland; layers XIII and XII-L, medium jungle; layers XII-K to VIII, once again grassland; and from VII to I the current vegetation. These changes were not sudden but rather constitute advances and declines of the jungle with greater or lesser extension of the grasslands, where large animals and certain specialized rodents lived.

Once again the end of pleistocene conditions appears to be situated in the region of layers VIII and VII of the well "El Toro." Of the four extinct pleistocene species (Mammut americanum, Canis diris, Tanupolama, and Equus conversidens) and the three whose distribution receded more to the north (Bison bison, Canis lupus, and Canis latrans) five did not occur above layer VIII in "El Toro" and layer VII-F in "El Tunel." [The exceptions are the bison with three problematic examples in layer VI of "El Toro" and the horse, with 44 fragments in layers VII, VI, and V (all with ceramics), in "El Toro" and 59 fragments en the subdivisions VII-B and VII-E in "El Tunel." What is clear is that the presence of the horse Equus conversidens alone cannot be sufficient to declare a layer as pleistocene in its entirety, given the long series of combinations of this species with later materials in the collections of Mercer, Hatt, and others. Something happened here that is still difficult to explain. Horse bones seem to have formed the last layer of the Pleistocene or Epi-Pleistocene in various caves, or they must have been dragged into the caves decades up to millenia later, something that is difficult to accept given the climatic conditions of the Tropics. If we postulate a longer survival of the horse than that of other pleistocene animals to explain this situation, it would have to extend until almost the beginning of the ceramic epoch, which would not please the paleontologists.

Lithic Loltun also has not been been very amenable [to exploration]. There are very few well-defined techniques for dealing with stone fragments and cores; such techniques have varied widely from the beginning to the end. One of the reasons may derive from the uselessness of local flint for fine work. In the layers considered to be pre-ceramic there are very few tools: scrapers, shavers, knife-scrapers, jagged-edged tools (denticulados), and one sharp-ended tool (punta), all being of a very reduced size and totaling no more than 11 objects. Production techniques are limited to marginal finishing using stone chips and plates as the primary materials.

It may seem excessive the detail with which we have described the evidence that is so hard to understand about Loltun. But I believe that it is necessary because of the site's possible importance and because the findings have become widely known without specifying that the usable data until now are few and weak. Loltun has been incorporated into general theories about Mayan archeology and about the origins of humans in Mesoamerica.

Some authors limit themselves to mentioning an association between stone artifacts and Pleistocene animal bones, for others there is an association [p. 256] with Mammoth bones, and in a summary of the most relevant Mayan archeology in the last few years the long stratified sequence and the appearance of ceramics supposedly dated in 1800 BC is indicated. Regarding this last date, we must emphasize that among the first pots found in layer VII of "El Toro" there appear some fragments having characteristics of early pottery, but comparisons with material from Chiapas and from the Swazey complex in Belize have not given positive results, so the most probable date is Middle Preclassic.

The preceramic lithic material from Loltun has been tentatively assigned, because of it primitive and irregular character, to very early stages, before 14,000 BC. Others place it in the transition between the Pleistocene and Holocene and compare it with the complex of La Piedra del Coyote in the Guatemalan highlands and phase I of the Cave of Santa Martha in Chiapas. In this case it would have an age somewhere around 8000 to 10000 BC. It would be a manifestation of the Superior Cenolithic or until the Proto-Neolithic, or in other words, the Archaic.

In view of the evidence I have described, I lean toward the second possibility, and it is possible that its antiquity could be less, if we consider the continuity of the lithic of the Preclassic.

There is much left to do at Loltun. We are sure that there is an association of humans with pleistocene animals, but we must look in the part that has not yet been excavated for unmistakable evidence, where the strata have not been disturbed, where there is direct association of tools and bones, and direct action with the animals. We lack explicit traces of human visits to the cave as a home, places of work, or remains of other cultural elements besides only stone chips, and in the end, remains of prehistoric humans themselves. (pp. 254-55)”

Now let’s compare Schmidt’s statements to the Peterson/Sorenson summary of those statements.

Peterson:
“Pottery and other cultural materials were found in levels VII and above. But in some of those artifact-bearing strata there were horse bones, even in level II. A radiocarbon date for the beginning of VII turned out to be around 1800 BC. The pottery fragments above that would place some portions in the range of at least 900–400 BC and possibly later.”

Schmidt:
“But unfortunately there are horse [remains] in layers VII and VI and also a very small quantity in layer V, all three containing ceramics. “

My comments: While there is nothing in this Schdmit reference about horse bones above Level II, Peterson may have been referencing the earlier Mercer find. However, the horse bones from the top levels were identified as the modern horse, post-Conquest.

Peterson:
“Some archaeologists have suggested that the horse bones were stirred upward from lower to higher levels by the action of tunneling rodents, but they admit that this explanation is not easy to accept.”

Schmidt:
“Obviously there is some disturbance in these layers. Rodents as well as the most common mammals from the cave stand out in studies of the cave's fauna.

The stratigraphic and faunal analyses clearly establish that the excavated sediments must have accumulated from the Pleistocene era to the present, with heavy interference at least from layer VII on up. Only layer VIII remains a possible area of occurrence of both lithic material and pleistocene bones in a primary context.


What is clear is that the presence of the horse Equus conversidens alone cannot be sufficient to declare a layer as pleistocene in its entirety, given the long series of combinations of this species with later materials in the collections of Mercer, Hatt, and others. Something happened here that is still difficult to explain. Horse bones seem to have formed the last layer of the Pleistocene or Epi-Pleistocene in various caves, or they must have been dragged into the caves decades up to millenia later, something that is difficult to accept given the climatic conditions of the Tropics. If we postulate a longer survival of the horse than that of other pleistocene animals to explain this situation, it would have to extend until almost the beginning of the ceramic epoch, which would not please the paleontologists.”

My first comment is that the Peterson/Sorenson summary in misleading in that it states that Schmidt said the possibility that horse bones were stirred upward from lower levels to higher levels by tunneling rodents is “not easy to accept”. This is not true. Schmidt accepts that the tunneling rodents disturbed the layers, as does Mercer.

From page 118 of the Mercer text:

“Layer 3, one foot eleven inches to two feet ten inches think, and capped with a solid white bed of pure ashes.

We soon found that Layer 3 had been much disturbed, and notably by the burrowing of animals.”

It should be noted that the numbers of the layers vary depending upon researcher. Earlier, on page 116, Mercer defined “layer 3” as follows:

”The bottom of Layer 3 marked, as before mentioned, the bottom line of human interference in the cave earth.”

This seems to roughly correlate with Schmidt’s level VII.

Rodents heavily populated this cave and obviously disturbed the layers. What Schmidt referred to as “difficult to accept” is that the horse bones were dragged into the caves later, not that the rodents may have disturbed the remains.

The more fundamentally misleading context of the Peterson/Sorenson statement is that it implies that Schmidt did not believe that the horse remains dated from the Pleistocene era. Yet Schmidt made it obvious that he believes that the later layers were disrupted and that “only layer VIII remains a possible area of occurrence of both lithic material and pleistocene bones in a primary context.” This is consistent with the conclusions arrived at in the Ice Age Fauna text quoted above.

If you all see something I omitted, let me know! Thanks for your help!

[_truth dancer]

Nice work Beastie, John, and Chris!

I'm wondering if there will be any response from those who have been enlightened?

;-)

~dancer~

[_beastie]

Here's what I intend to add to my website regarding Hun horses. Ludwig sent me a ton of links and I chose to use the ones that were in English, along with one example of the hungarian site he gave a summary of. I also remembered another source I had seen on this issue.

Hun horse

A frequently repeated argument among those who insist that the absence of evidence of the horse dating to the Book of Mormon time periods in Mesoamerica does not constitute evidence of absence is the following:

Consider the case of the Huns of central Asia and eastern Europe. They were a nomadic people for whom horses were a significant part of their power, wealth, and culture. It has been estimated that each Hun warrior may have owned as many as ten horses. Thus, during their two-century-long domination of the western steppes, the Huns must have had hundreds of thousands of horses. Yet, as the Hungarian researcher Sándor Bökönyi puts it with considerable understatement, "we know very little of the Huns' horses. It is interesting that not a single usable horse bone has been found in the territory of the whole empire of the Huns. This is all the more deplorable as contemporary sources mention these horses with high appreciation."58

Accordingly, if Hunnic horse bones are so rare despite the vast herds of horses that undoubtedly once inhabited the steppes, why should we expect extensive evidence of the use of horses in Nephite Mesoamerica—especially considering how limited are the references to horses in the text of the Book of Mormon?

Daniel Peterson, Matthew Roper: Ein Heldenleben? On Thomas Stuart Ferguson as an Elias for Cultural Mormons
http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=review&id=531

I do not have access to the referenced text, History of Domestic Mammals in Central and Eastern Europe, but an Hungarian friend named Ludwig provided several citations that directly contradict this assertion.

The Last Century of Avar Rule
Few cemeteries remained in continuous use all the way from the first half of the 7th century to the collapse of the Avar empire. Of the cemeteries discovered in Transylvania, only the partially explored one at Tövis may be assigned to this category, on the basis of a cast bronze strap-tip from the late period. The new wave of immigration had a dramatic impact on the pattern of settlement: most of the villages and cemeteries that existed at the end of the 7th century had been either reconstructed, or newly founded in the preceding {1-241.} twenty-five years. Rich and varied grave finds at Aranyosgyéres (where the previously noted burial with horse signalled the transformation) testify to a large, late Avar cemetery. The objects, all typical of the late Avar period, include both the earlier, solid type and later, pierced type of cast strap-tips and buckles with a tendril design; round and pendant belt ornaments with flowery tendril and lion motifs; diverse stirrups with flat footrests: pikeheads and war axes of diverse shape; as well as women's apparel, notably round and oval earrings with bead pendants, melon seed beads, and hair clasps. Some cemeteries, such as the one at Baráthely (no. 2), only came into use in the late Avar period.

On the western periphery of the Transylvanian Basin, around the junction of the Maros and Küküllő rivers, the graves of Avar military chiefs — containing horses and weapons — suddenly appear in the late Avar period, at sites that bear no earlier traces. Graves (with a horse) at Baráthely, Hari, and Muzsnaháza, have yielded stirrups from the late period, as well as bridles with curved sticks, cast strap-ornaments, and spearheads of a late type — objects associated with the Avar military class of the 8th century. At Magyarlapád, a grave with horse was unearthed at a spot between the Gorgány River and the castle; the grave-goods — stirrups with footrests that curve upwards, large, round, rose-shaped bridle ornaments (falera), four-arc harness decorations, a spear, and a war axe — date its origins to the last decades of the Avar empire. The grave is the only one of its kind discovered in Transylvania. Other traces of late Avars have been found in the lateral valleys of the Maros valley, areas that were suitable for pasturing and stock-breeding but had been sparsely settled. The traces include the contents of a grave at Lesnyek (Hunyad county) — a cast-bronze strap-tip, gilded in a floral tendril pattern, gilded bronze harness ornaments, and a silver brooch — as well as a belt ornament, with pendants, found at Szentgyörgyválya, in the Strigy-Zsil valley. Judging from these finds, the late Avars lived in an area only half as large as that of the early Avars.

By the 8th century, many of the regions that once enjoyed a central importance in the Avar empire (such as Fejér and Tolna counties) had lost their significance. Thus, in the Temes region, which in earlier times was densely populated, only a few finds testify to the late Avar period: griffin and tendril patterned belt ornaments at Denta and the Temesvár-Módosi bridge (five graves that also yielded horses, sabres with tendril-design belt ornaments, distinctive mask- and pendant-design belt ornaments, and a ceramic vessel, fashioned on the wheel, that dates from the late period); a turned-bone container for needles, indicative of a woman's grave (Perjámos-Sánchalom); and a few grave dishes made on a potter's wheel (Lovrin, Radna). The eastern part of the Great Plain, between the Maros and Fehér-Körös rivers, presents a similar picture: only the cemetery at Székudvar — where a grave (with horse) yielded stirrups and a fine, pierced strap-tip of cast bronze — betrays the presence of late Avars. The date of two Avar graves at Simánd is not known.
Apparently, the Ér valley remained an important Avar district. The two late Avar graves, found in a despoiled state at Székelyhíd-Veres-domb, date back to the turn of the 8th century, for their contents reflect the period of change. The first grave yielded remarkable, Oriental-style cast and pressed belt-ornaments and strap-tips, part of a wooden dish with copper straps, and a stick-shaped braid clip; the second, a distinctive stirrup and a straight sabre. An intact, 8th century grave at Érdengeleg-Újtemető yielded a sabre and a weapon-belt with a tendril-design, cast strap-tip. Sunken-floor dwellings that date from the late Avar period have been discovered at Biharvár; they contained horseshoe-shaped stoves made of stone or clay and fragments of mainly handcrafted vessels.

Concurrently, Szatmár, Szilágy, and the Szatmár districts of Szabolcs-Szatmár county — areas which had been uninhabited for close to 150 years — suddenly gained in importance. A number of finds attest to this change: at Sikárló a cast-bronze strap-tip, decorated {1-243.} in a tendril pattern; at Zilah, a large, silver-plated bronze strap-tip, with a unique decoration depicting a griffin as well as a big-toothed beast of prey falling upon a stag; from a grave (with horse) at Érkávás, a large, cast-bronze strap-tip (bearing, once again, the depiction of a griffin attacking a stag) and harness decorations; from the onetime Szilágy county, and now in a museum, cast buckles and belt ornaments with griffin decoration; and at Doboka, a belt ornament with a 'flat tendril' type, disc-shaped pendant. In the case of some of these sites (such as 'Szilágy county' and Doboka), it cannot be determined whether they are of Avar origin, or whether they are linked to the Slavic population represented by the 'mound' cemeteries at Szilágynagyfalu-Szamosfalva. Ornaments dating from the same period (8th–9th century) and found at Mátészalka and Záhony came from territories inhabited by SlavIn the 8th century, the material culture (especially pottery) of Transylvania's Avars and Slavs became so intertwined that the two groups can be distinguished, if at all, by the burial rites revealed in their graveyards. The fact that a Slav settlement may show traces of Avar influence does not prove that Avars had been present; it merely indicates that the Slavs had occasionally adopted the Avars' metal and ceramic products, objects that now identify a specific historical period.
*
The second half of the Avar period, like the first, can only be assessed in terms of changing patterns of settlement. Cemeteries must be excavated, and their size, composition, and stratification studied if one wants to gain insight into the structure of society. The different types of burials — with horse, with horse and weapons, with weapons and decorated belts — can all be found throughout the Avar territory, but the social status that they indicate will vary {1-244.} greatly, for the graves may hold members of the military escort of regional rulers, people from military frontier posts, village or other community leaders, heads of family or chiefs of clan. It is not possible yet to determine which of these social strata predominates in the graveyards discovered so far in Transylvania. The only firm conclusion that can be drawn from the archaeological sites is that at the end of the 8th century, the Avars were still present in the western Transylvanian Basin, around the middle Maros valley and the lower reaches of the Küküllő rivers; thus their area of settlement had become reduced to salt-mining districts of Torda, Marosújvár, and Kisakna. There are also Avar traces, dating from the second half of the 8th century, in southern Transylvania and the Szamos valley. Although these traces might indicate that the Avars had begun to exploit the rich pastures of these more mountainous regions, it is more likely that they were left by Slavic chiefs who had assimilated Avar ways.

From The Early Coexistence of Avars and Slavs
http://mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/46.html

Moving westward from the Don region, the Hungarians reached the Danube Delta between 832 and 836. Their temporary settlement area, which they called Etelköz ('Atelkuzu'), eventually extended to the valleys of the Dniester, Prut, and Seret rivers. The archaeological evidence, though ambiguous, is probably indicative of their passage: for instance, in the older section of the 'common people's' cemetery at Căpreria, in Moldavia (shallow graves, on an west-east axis, holding personal accessories, trepanned skulls, and 'Saltovo-type' pots), or at another cemetery in Moldavia, at Braneşti, where traces were found of distinctively Hungarian rites. Some graves, with horses, that are more likely Hungarian than Pecheneg have been found in southern Moldavia at Friedensfeld/ Mirnopole and Sabalaţ/Szadovoj; the grave at Frumusika/ Frumuşica yielded bow-stiffeners made of bone, an iron-studded quiver, and seven arrowheads, all of distinctly Hungarian character. Graves that are arguably of Hungarian origin have been found even in Moldova (Holboca, Moscu, Probotă, Grozeşti).
In the case of certain isolated burial places dating from the 9th–10th century — 'nomadic' graves, with horse and plain weapons such as quivers and arrows — it is difficult, and at times impossible to ascertain whether they are of pre-900, Hungarian origin, or of post-900, Pecheneg provenance. According to the reputable report of Constantine Porphyrogenetos, written around 948, the Pechenegs' domain had already stretched at that time for fifty years as far as 'the lower reaches of the Danube, opposite Dristra' [now Silistra] ). This, however, does not preclude the presence of Hungarians, in the 9th century, in Moldova or in the Lower Danube region. A number of finds are arguably of Hungarian origin. At {1-278.} Probotă (Prut valley, north of Iaşi), the incomplete grave of a man (with bundled horse-skin) yielded a quiver holding seven typical arrowheads. Similar discoveries have been made at Grozeşti, as well as at Moviliţa (Ialomiţa valley, north of Bucharest), where a quiver held six diamond-shaped arrowheads. The report on a find at Tirgşor (Muntenia) attributes Hungarian origin to a lyre-shaped, bronze clasp.

TRANSYLVANIA IN THE PERIOD OF THE HUNGARIAN CONQUEST AND FOUNDATION OF A STATE
http://mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/52.html

Drawing of man’s grave with horse remains
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01993/html/index362.html

The best known memorial of this new epoch is the small cemetery at Marosgombás. Its graves (with horses) are dated by stirrups as well as by a more substantial type of food container that had lately come into common use throughout the Avar empire. Byzantine silver and bronze earrings and necklaces with star-shaped pendants date from the same period.

The Early Coexistence of Avars and Slavs
http://mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/45.html

The largest site in the Carpathian Basin of Slavic urn-graves was on the south bank of the Nagy Küküllő, at Baráthely 2. Moreover, that is the only confirmed site where a significant number {1-253.} of Avars cohabited with Slavs: the cemetery holds 36 graves of Avar origin (34 with skeletons, 2 with horses) as well as 210 graves of cremated Slavs (34 in urns). The Avar graves are scattered throughout the site, most of them in the alignment that characterizes the late Avar period. Some 90% of the Avar objects found in the cemetery (stirrup, bridle, cast-bronze belt ornaments, earrings adorned with tiny spheres, beads shaped like melon seeds, iron strike-a-light, and pottery) came from graves that held a skeleton. The rites, clothing, accessories and funeral objects are similar to those found in other regions of the Avar empire, at cemeteries of less wealthy, Avar villages dating from the 8th century. The find in four cremation graves of an Avar earring with tiny spheres, a crescent-shaped earring with silver pendant, an iron rattle, and some cast-bronze belt ornaments with a tendril pattern is particularly significant, for it serves as proof of cohabitation.

THE SLAVS
http://mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/47.html

THE BELIEFS OF THE PAGAN HUNGARIANS
The sacrifice of horses and the tradition of horse burials are known from archaeological findings. These are verified by the written sources mentioning the sacrifice of the white horse, drinking mare's milk and the compact sealed with blood (which is a symbol of the greatest sacrifice, that of life-force, among strange peoples to gain kinship).

http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01993/html/index16.html

These are just a few of the many links Ludwig provided for me that happened to be in English. He also provided 11 others in Hungarian with a brief translation. Just one example of those is the following:

Summary:
- burying with horses in 38 place
- all in all 78 grave with horses
- 51 of them are men, 14 of them women, one child, 12 are unknown
- harnessed horses 26
- horse skin in 35 case
- there is a map of the area with buried horses
http://jam.nyirbone.hu/konyvtar/evkonyv ... orosI.html

Additionally, impressive evidence can be found here:

Hun Princess Graveyard’s Secret
A Hunnu princess’s graveyard discovered in summer of 1990 in Mankhan locality of Khovd province has become the sensation in the world of archeology.
Ever since 1924 when the graveyard of the Hunnu ruler Modun Shayu filled with riches was discovered, this become only the second time when the remains of Hun noble was found.
“We were really lucky. The graveyard was not plundered. Though the wooden cover of the graveyard was demolished the coffin chamber was well preserved,” says the Khovd archeological expedition head, Prof. D. Navaan….
Five horse skulls were put on the northern side to the burial, with one horse head turned towards the coffin. The number 5 was revered by Huns because of their special reverence for Cygnus Constellation. One separate horse head probably belonged to the princess’ beloved horse.

Hunnu princess. Rock painting from Gobi Alatai province, Khanyn Khad Mountain
http://www.mongoliatoday.com/issue/8/hun.html
Without access to the source cited by Peterson/Roper, it is impossible to comment on exactly what the author meant, given the numerous evidences cited here. But clearly archaeological evidence of the Hun horse exists.

[_Pokatator]

I would like to thank Beastie, John, Chris and Ludwigm for a great educational thread (I hope I am not leaving out anyone). To borrow from the theme of another thread, personally I don't care what your academic credentials are. This is credible academic work and scholarship and that is how I judge "credentials". You guys have it.

I have throughly enjoyed this thread more than many in a long time.

[_beastie]

Yes, this has been a great thread with many breakthroughs in terms of investigation of claims. Teamwork is great!!

[_beastie]

Nice work Beastie, John, and Chris!

I'm wondering if there will be any response from those who have been enlightened?

;-)

I think it will be ignored. Obviously MAD was immediately aware of it, as it disabled the links almost the second I posted it. If MAD moderators were watching it that closely, I have no doubt that the "big name" apologists associated with FAIR were also aware of it as well. But I believe they will ignore it. If they actually respond to it, that will call attention to it and more people will read it. I think they'd rather call attention to arguments that can easily dismantle rather than the seriously substantive arguments I raise. They really don't want serious analysis. They want followers who are immediately appeased and happy with what the apologists feed them, OR they want critics that raise easily dismissed issues. in my opinion.

[_Blixa]

Thanks beastie and ludwig! That material was interesting in its own right, let alone its connection to this apologetic analogy.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Hi beastie,

I recommend, lest your webpages become too long, that you include the brief "summary" of Hunnic horse finds on your main page but that you also link to a "subpage" where you put the rest of it. Otherwise it's probably too lengthy a digression. But that's just a design issue, and of course totally at your discretion. Good work!

-Chris

[_beastie]

Yeah, I was thinking about whether or not I have it placed well. That's why I'm waiting until I have all my changes in place before actually posting it online.

Speaking of design, someone earlier suggested that I fix the names of the pages so when they come up the name isn't always "page one". I can't figure out how to do it. I'm using frontpage, if anyone has advice.