Gangbang at MADB

[_BishopRic]

Just a thought...if Mormons claim to be "Christian," do they accept the Warren Jeffs' sects as "Mormons?"

[_Pokatator]

Just a thought...if Mormons claim to be "Christian," do they accept the Warren Jeffs' sects as "Mormons?"

No, that double standard has been pointed out many times. They want a one-way street.

In my opinion, Warren Jeffs is a true Joseph Smith Mormon.

[_charity]

Just a thought...if Mormons claim to be "Christian," do they accept the Warren Jeffs' sects as "Mormons?"

No, that double standard has been pointed out many times. They want a one-way street.

In my opinion, Warren Jeffs is a true Joseph Smith Mormon.

Anyone who worships Christ can say they are Christian. No one "owns" the word. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints "owns" the word Mormon. So no one else can use it without permission.

And Warren Jeffs, who has admitted in court, he deliberately deceived people by claiming to be a prophet, is not anything like Joseph Smith, a true prophet.

[_Jersey Girl]

Hell, trying to get "Christians" to agree on the nature of god or what a "true Christian" is like trying to get a Mopologist to admit, well, anything.

Well, Joseph Smith didn't seem to have any problem deciding what constituted the nature of God in Christian terms or changing it to suit his agenda.

[_Jersey Girl]

Just a thought...if Mormons claim to be "Christian," do they accept the Warren Jeffs' sects as "Mormons?"

How could the Warren Jeff's sect NOT be considered Mormons?

[_truth dancer]

The Church sends missionaries out because at its core it believes it is the Only True and Living Christian Church. In the purest sense the LDS Church should claim that there is no valid Christianity except the LDS Church.

Don't they?

Saying mainstream Christianity is an "abomination" (think Joseph Smith's first vision), is pretty much saying they are not of Christ no?

Claiming mainstream Christianity is a church in apostasy is pretty much saying they are not followers of Christ no?


I see both sides of this issue..... I totally understand why mainstream Christians do not believe the LDS are Christian, and I get why Mormons think they are.

They both may believe Jesus is the savior but their ideas about Jesus and God are completely at odds.

~dancer~

[_Jersey Girl]

truth dancer

They both may believe Jesus is the savior but their ideas about Jesus and God are completely at odds.

Yes.

[_Nightingale]

On just a first glance, I think I see why it went like that. Looks like the LDS posters assumed that "Carmella" comes from "CARM" (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry").

I'm not that familiar with CARM - basically they believe that [mainstream Christianity] embodies Biblical truth and that many other groups fall outside that, including the Watchtower Society (JWs) and the Mormon Church - but I'm not sure how they convey that message. The message itself is bound to be offensive to the named groups and if they are somewhat zealous in promoting it, I guess they could stir up some ire.

I have long been interested in this debate as it relates to different sects within Protestantism as well as JWs and LDS. My understanding is that it is accepted by mainstreamers that there are core doctrines in which you must believe to be considered "Christian". Indeed, to enter many Christian schools and universities you must sign a document confirming such belief (similar to BYU/ecclesiastical endorsement, as far as I know). One of the primary doctrines is the Trinity. Simply put, not believing in the Trinity is enough to render you "non-Christian" according to this approach. That wipes out JWs and LDS both, for the same reason, all else apart.

One other propensity I have observed on FAIR and then MADB is that it seems that all non-LDS newcomers are assumed to know all about the board, understand its history and rules (written and unwritten) and are considered to be straying into stormy waters on purpose if they raise certain issues or questions or make certain remarks. Even if unwittingly, they turn on Defence Mode in all the LDS posters who, imho, react as if the new poster is knowingly stirring the pot, whether or not this is indeed the case.

One example is that a newbie posts "Did Joseph Smith have more than one wife?" LDS posters go "{{sigh}} TROLL!!!!!!" as kind of a knee jerk reflex. They have no way of knowing who the poster is or what their motives are but they assume, from how they have perceived their board history so far, that this is an obvious troll. On occasion, I am sure, some poor unaware newbie get dog-piled and is left trying to clear their head, wondering what the heck just happened.

I understand (now) why this happens: it seems that the LDS posters are feeling besieged as a matter of course and their first reaction is always to defend, even if the newcomer didn't mean an attack. This is just my impression from a couple of years of popping in now and then to see what's up there. I have tried to participate, as I enjoy discussions about religious beliefs, but couldn't get how to do it to avoid giving unintended offence. To questions about why I care, I just don't enjoy arguing, plain and simple. I also don't like to have my motives questioned or misunderstood. It doesn't make for good discussion.

I would hope that MADB LDS participants could find a way to be less suspicious of new participants. Maybe they need more LDS members to take up the cause to give the more seasoned vets, who seem very fatigued, some respite. That could cut down on the "asked and answered 2874 times!" attitude that greets many newbies.

It kind of reminds me of a board like RfM where some of the posters are very troll-conscious and yell "troll" sometimes too quickly. This is born, in part, because of being burned in the past - maybe offering extensive emotional support to someone who turns out to just be trolling. But better to hold back if you think it's a troll, let Admin handle it and not get involved or upset about it. Same with MADB. I'd like to see them greet every newbie as a welcome participant, rather than with suspicion. Then, if there are doubts, don't engage and let their mods handle any analysis and action. That way, regular participants on either board don't need to react defensively and mods in both places could root out true disrupters. This would relieve the body of posters from any hassle and could ratchet back Defence Mode that appears like a brick wall to innocent newbies.

Anyway, back to Carmella. I'm guessing that MADB posters immediately assumed (perhaps correctly) that Carmella comes from CARM. (If not, s/he chose an unfortunate board name).

Here's CARM:

http://www.carm.org/


Here is CARM's summary about Mormonism:

"Why is Mormonism a non Christian religion? It is not Christian because it denies that there is only one God, denies the true Gospel, adds works to salvation, denies that Jesus is the uncreated creator, distorts the biblical teaching of the atonement, and undermines the authority and reliability of the Bible.

CARM does not deny that Mormons are good people, that they worship "a" god, that they share common words with Christians, that they help their people, and that they do many good things. But that isn't what makes someone Christian. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23, " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (NKJV). Becoming a Christian does not mean belonging to a church, doing good things, or simply believing in God. Being a Christian means that you have trusted in the true God for salvation, in the True Jesus -- not the brother of the devil, not the god of Mormonism, not the gospel of Mormonism. Mormonism is false and cannot save anyone."

This is similar to what I've heard in various mainstream Prot churches about Mormonism (and similar re JWs). I don't appreciate it when people tell me I'm not Christian due to some difference in belief or some lack of observance so I can see why LDS object to it too. However, I was under the impression that the Mormon Church itself, at least in the past, wished to be identified as LDS, not Christian (more recently than in the time of BY). There are many quotes to that effect (post-BY).

I think there is plenty of scope to understand each other's positions. I can't see, however, how this divide can be narrowed. I doubt that either side can so radically alter its foundational doctrines so completely as to find much common ground at all. It isn't just about the Trinity, although that is a massive sticking point. It is about what each believes about the very nature of God. The two concepts are worlds apart and not reconcilable. The question is, do Christians put too much emphasis on that, thereby excluding forever any group with a different view? Did Jesus really intend for people to spend centuries arguing fine points of doctrine I wonder? It is worth considering that "doctrine" is just our way of trying to explain what we believe and is not, in and of itself, life-giving or absolute, open to interpretation as it is, on all sides.

I can see some room for an appelation like LDS-Christian. I have little say in the matter though.

So, I think that's what's up with the whole Carmella thing although I admit to not yet finding the time to read the whole thread.

I would be surprised indeed if merely saying that LDS are not Christians would get you kicked off MADB. In fact, I had a little exchange with DCP on this a good while back. I don't remember the thread subject or even my comment but I do differentiate between "mainstream Christians" and LDS by using the terms 'Christian' and 'Mormon'. As LDS on that board use the term 'Mormon' I did not think that could be offensive. DCP popped up after one of my posts to say something to the effect that he doesn't like to sit still for non-LDS differentiating the two groups like that; In other words, saying Christians and Mormons implies, if only subtly, that Mormons are not Christians. I had not intended that to be the point of my comment but do actually make the differentiation as I have an EV background and that is the prevailing opinion, but I ended up saying something like how about if I say LDS-Christians and non-LDS Christians and he said he could go for that. This wasn't strictly a discussion at all about whether LDS are Christians or not but still I am sure I've seen quite a few threads there on this subject and those posters were not banned. I haven't returned to this subject there (nor have I posted there much anyway) so don't know how it would go.

I think that either CARMella was assumed to be a troll or was a troll or made some offensive remark or other, on purpose or otherwise - I haven't seen that yet. I'll go read some more...

[_TrashcanMan79]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints "owns" the word Mormon.

And yet the Church resents, oddly, being referred to as "the Mormon Church" in media....

[_the road to hana]

Anyone who worships Christ can say they are Christian. No one "owns" the word. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints "owns" the word Mormon. So no one else can use it without permission.

That's two separate issues, one of intellectual property, and the other of heresy.