Mountain Meadows

[_Dr. Shades]

Blixa:

Speaking of MMM lore, I read about a rumor that had circulated among Southern Utah residents that, on the day of the massacre, some Paiute Indians discovered the hiding place of a couple of young girls, aged 12-14 or thereabouts, and reported them to John D. Lee. Lee then raped them both before murdering them.

In a different account, I read that, late in the Nineteenth Century, some St. George residents affirmed that the rumor was indeed true.

Have you heard anything about this?

[_Blixa]

I believe it likely a Jacob Hamblin invented lie.

I can't off the top of my head trace the origin and instances of it with perfect accuracy; its been a while since I've had that in the forefront of my mind. While it does play to Lee's own, often self-proclaimed, reputation as a sex machine, I don't think there was time or opportunity for such a scene, and not in a situation where there was already men on the field who were not entirely sold on the affair (you remember there were recruits from Cedar City who had been told to report to help bury the dead of an Indian attack, only to find the seige ongoing as well as accounts of several men who flat out refused to participate). Lee had a lot on his hands that day, to say the least, as they all did.

Off the top of my head, my memory is this:

Hamblin's "adopted" Indian son Albert gives a story to Major Carleton during the first official investigations in 1959. He claimed he watched the massacre from a hill (for days apparently) and saw two young girls hiding behind some bushes. When they were discovered by some Indians Albert ran down to save them, but to no avail. Carleton dismisses Albert's story as bald faced lie, since two of the surviving orphans have already pointed out Albert as the murderer of their two older sisters to Indian agent Jacob Forney in a similar description of the two girls making a break for it. Carleton writes disgustedly that Albert is probably the perpetrator and not the would be hero of this tale.

This probably formed the basis for the story Hamblin told at the second Lee trial. At this trial, Hamblin, Nephi Johnson and virtually ever other witness against Lee suddenly remembered in great detail things they had claimed no knowledge of in the first trial. Lee was unprepared for the betrayal and the newspaper accounts describe what sounds like a near nervous breakdown during Hamblin's testimony about Lee slitting the throat of two girls after committing some, I think insinuated and not spelled out, offense upon them. I think the second trial is the first place the accusation is made publically.

I can't remember at the moment, if rumors to this effect had circulated prior to this and if so were explicitly tied to Lee or just suggestions of other dark deeds done that day. Lee had enemies, Hamblin chief among them, and as Bagley suggests it would have been a nice settling of scores to foist off on Lee something Albert Hamblin had done (the murders, not the rape). I rather think all instances of the story, like the later one you mention of locals "affirming it was true" date to after the second Lee trial and can be linked to Hamblin's testimony, but this is off the top of my head and I could have a forgotten a few details.

Whatever the circulation of the story is, I do think it an invention: I think it unlikely to have happened and I think it fits with the kind of character assassination that was carried out in the second Lee trial.

[_Yoda]

Pssst. "Ancestors." But that isn't even really a correct statement. There are few direct Fancher train descendants. (Remember they were killed. Dead people don't produce offspring. And only a few survived.) But there are many Fancher train relations.

And I wonder about those who grieve for people they were only marginally related to and never knew, after a period of at least 100 years has gone by. My great-greatgrandfather and one of his sons (a brother to my great grandfather) were ambused an killed by a neighbor. John Taney laid in wait and shot them in a dispute over the boundary of their land claims. These deaths happened in the 1860's. Do I expect the Taney family to erect a monument? NO. Do I grieve over these deaths? NO. And if I were to do so, it would be indicative of a dysfunctional personality.

Can I be sorry that this family tragedy occurred almost 150 years ago? Of course. But to "grieve?" Ask any grief counselor and he/she will tell you this is a sign of mental dysfunction.

I can't believe I'm hearing this. Of course people grieve for their ancestors. We Mormons get all weepy over the events at Carthage, about the suffering of the Willie-Martin handcart company, and about the massacre at Haun's Mill. And we're most likely not related to these people! "Ask any grief counselor and he/she will tell you this is a sign of mental dysfunction."

It's unbelievable to me that you cannot even acknowledge the grief and pain these descendants feel. We grieve for our dead. Let the Fanchers grieve for theirs.

I second Runtu here. How can you say something so callous, Charity? And inferring that people who grieve in this case are mentally dysfunctional?

Are you that desperate to defend the Church at any cost that you would overlook the suffering of real people?

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Are you that desperate to defend the Church at any cost that you would overlook the suffering of real people?

In defense of Charity, I believe she unfortunately borrowed this idea from Professor Peterson. I seem to remember over at the other board there were a lot of MMM threads around the time September Dawn hit theaters. DCP questioned the sincerity of the Fancher descendants since it has been 150 years and they should no longer be mourning. He insinuated that they are faking their grief so the church can keep suffering. I believe charity has picked up this idea and run with it. The problem with this theory, of course, is the church does the same thing with their murdered ancestors.

As for suggesting that Charity is overlooking the suffering of "real people." I seriously doubt she sees the Fancher descendants as anything but anti-mormons.

[_solomarineris]

As for suggesting that Charity is overlooking the suffering of "real people." I seriously doubt she sees the Fancher descendants as anything but anti-mormons.

This is why the church will not grow; Led by arrogant idiots, who will not admit mistakes and think they are the best thing happened to Planet.
Fine with me, While I'll be not happy to see them (LDS) wither, it is inevitable.

[_Pokatator]

In defense of Charity, I believe she unfortunately borrowed this idea from Professor Peterson. I seem to remember over at the other board there were a lot of MMM threads around the time September Dawn hit theaters. DCP questioned the sincerity of the Fancher descendants since it has been 150 years and they should no longer be mourning. He insinuated that they are faking their grief so the church can keep suffering. I believe charity has picked up this idea and run with it. The problem with this theory, of course, is the church does the same thing with their murdered ancestors.

As for suggesting that Charity is overlooking the suffering of "real people." I seriously doubt she sees the Fancher descendants as anything but anti-mormons.

So, in your opinion, does Charity see anti-mormons as non "real people"?

[_moksha]

Anyway, those are the folk tales and ghost stories I've most often run across.

Out of curiosity, have you run across any regarding Brigham Young's grave in the Salt Lake City Cemetary?

[_TAK]

In defense of Charity, I believe she unfortunately borrowed this idea from Professor Peterson. I seem to remember over at the other board there were a lot of MMM threads around the time September Dawn hit theaters. DCP questioned the sincerity of the Fancher descendants since it has been 150 years and they should no longer be mourning. He insinuated that they are faking their grief so the church can keep suffering. I believe charity has picked up this idea and run with it. The problem with this theory, of course, is the church does the same thing with their murdered ancestors.

As for suggesting that Charity is overlooking the suffering of "real people." I seriously doubt she sees the Fancher descendants as anything but anti-mormons.

So, in your opinion, does Charity see anti-mormons as non "real people"?

I recall the thread and DCPs comments above and thought it odd in light of the LDS theme of eternal family and the “ the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers..” Malachi / genealogy push on members.. Is FARMS trying to expelled that too from LDS theology?

[_Blixa]

Anyway, those are the folk tales and ghost stories I've most often run across.

Out of curiosity, have you run across any regarding Brigham Young's grave in the Salt Lake City Cemetary?

Lol! Its not in the City Cemetary!!!

(I do know all about the Victim of the Beast 666 tombstone there, though. But that would be another thread)

I remember what BY's grave used to be like before they upgraded it. The first time I saw it, I just stumbled on it--no one even seemed to know it was there and it was all overgrown and such. I even told about it in Primary and suggested we go on a field trip there, but no interest! I also remember the rickety stairs from the parking lot below...all changed now. The lifesize statue of BY reading to some children is fun, though. I took a picture of it with my copy of Blood of the Prophets in his hands...

[_Runtu]

Lol! Its not in the City Cemetary!!!

(I do know all about the Victim of the Beast 666 tombstone there, though. But that would be another thread)

I remember what BY's grave used to be like before they upgraded it. The first time I saw it, I just stumbled on it--no one even seemed to know it was there and it was all overgrown and such. I even told about it in Primary and suggested we go on a field trip there, but no interest! I also remember the rickety stairs from the parking lot below...all changed now. The lifesize statue of BY reading to some children is fun, though. I took a picture of it with my copy of Blood of the Prophets in his hands...

Last time I was there, a single red rose with a black ribbon lay on Eliza Snow's grave. I don't recall a statue, though. Maybe they've installed it since I was there. The Heber C. Kimball gravesite is nice, since it's tucked away from easy access. I used to take my lunch and a book over there quite a bit when I worked downtown.