Dangers of Religion

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_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

antishock8 wrote:Not to niggle the point, because it's well done, but I think the Crusades take a lot of flack because Christians and descendants of Christians feel guilty about it. However, they and Islamic apologists fail to acknowledge the Crusades, in a very significant way were a response to HUNDREDS of years of Islamic aggression, murder, jizya, slavery, and abuse. It wasn't until AFTER much of Christiandom was conquered and brutalized by Islamists, Moguls, and Jihadists did Christians mount a rejoinder.

That being said, I'm not going to be a "Crusades" apologist, because I also understand the political machinations behind it, the Inquisition, and other Christian atrocities, but I refuse to excuse Islamists from their culpability, which FAR exceeds ANY religious group, EVER.

The problem with religion, as far as I see it, is what it sanctions, if needed, by its adherents. From the Bible to the Quran and everything in between almost all religions (except maybe Jainists?) advocate, excuse, defend, and promote violence within their "holy" books. Their gods are gods of war. They make this universe a place of war. We have the ability, as human beings to rise above this, but as long as we revere books that contain and give safe harbor to violence then we will not, ever, completely be above levying death on others who do not believe like us. In other words, our violent nature, our violent inborn ideologies find the perfect excuse for manifestation via these death cults and their books.

Once again... What a shame. (Bold added by RM in agreement)


Thanks Antishock8, a thoughtful post into a challenging topic. Seems little doubt about the negative part that religion has played, and is playing in the affairs of human relations. Whether in Homes or on International stages there is ample evidence of that fact, as we assign responsibility. OTOH, we can also assign credit to religion for many good deeds in history, past and current, again in Homes, and beyond.

To honestly address the issue of war/violence we must really admitt the role that IGNORANCE plays in the schematic of human abuse of humans. As bolded above, "...We have the ability, as human beings to rise above this..." But not in ignorance, and its attachments: fear, prejudice, discrimination, greed, injustice, narcissism, and extreme self interest that generally feeds disputes. Education is the means, knowledge is the only way to remedy any malfunction or malfeasance.

Might "Religion" be a scape-goat? I respectfully suggest that the social message of the man Jesus--who unfortunately, IMSCO, has been eulogized beyond all sensibility--is there to be used IF/WHEN "Religion" ever gets its act together, so to speak. How that might transpire is hindered largely (other than by the afore mentioned "ignorance") by the egotists and meglomaniacs (Theists & Atheists) who defend and attack for their own purposes. Masses be damned... Yeah, there's hope. With better educated, more aware, and conscienced folks. However they might be constituted... Warm regards, Roger
_JAK
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Dangers of Religion

Post by _JAK »

Roger Morrison wrote:
antishock8 wrote:Not to niggle the point, because it's well done, but I think the Crusades take a lot of flack because Christians and descendants of Christians feel guilty about it. However, they and Islamic apologists fail to acknowledge the Crusades, in a very significant way were a response to HUNDREDS of years of Islamic aggression, murder, jizya, slavery, and abuse. It wasn't until AFTER much of Christiandom was conquered and brutalized by Islamists, Moguls, and Jihadists did Christians mount a rejoinder.

That being said, I'm not going to be a "Crusades" apologist, because I also understand the political machinations behind it, the Inquisition, and other Christian atrocities, but I refuse to excuse Islamists from their culpability, which FAR exceeds ANY religious group, EVER.

The problem with religion, as far as I see it, is what it sanctions, if needed, by its adherents. From the Bible to the Quran and everything in between almost all religions (except maybe Jainists?) advocate, excuse, defend, and promote violence within their "holy" books. Their gods are gods of war. They make this universe a place of war. We have the ability, as human beings to rise above this, but as long as we revere books that contain and give safe harbor to violence then we will not, ever, completely be above levying death on others who do not believe like us. In other words, our violent nature, our violent inborn ideologies find the perfect excuse for manifestation via these death cults and their books.

Once again... What a shame. (Bold added by RM in agreement)


Thanks Antishock8, a thoughtful post into a challenging topic. Seems little doubt about the negative part that religion has played, and is playing in the affairs of human relations. Whether in Homes or on International stages there is ample evidence of that fact, as we assign responsibility. OTOH, we can also assign credit to religion for many good deeds in history, past and current, again in Homes, and beyond.

To honestly address the issue of war/violence we must really admitt the role that IGNORANCE plays in the schematic of human abuse of humans. As bolded above, "...We have the ability, as human beings to rise above this..." But not in ignorance, and its attachments: fear, prejudice, discrimination, greed, injustice, narcissism, and extreme self interest that generally feeds disputes. Education is the means, knowledge is the only way to remedy any malfunction or malfeasance.

Might "Religion" be a scape-goat? I respectfully suggest that the social message of the man Jesus--who unfortunately, IMSCO, has been eulogized beyond all sensibility--is there to be used IF/WHEN "Religion" ever gets its act together, so to speak. How that might transpire is hindered largely (other than by the afore mentioned "ignorance") by the egotists and meglomaniacs (Theists & Atheists) who defend and attack for their own purposes. Masses be damned... Yeah, there's hope. With better educated, more aware, and conscienced folks. However they might be constituted... Warm regards, Roger


It is the generalization which is unlikely: “We have the ability, as human beings to rise above this.”

Consider the 9/11 terrorist attack. While few would carry out such an atrocity, it takes only a few to make the “ability” you attribute to “human beings” untenable. Consider the response of the executive branch of the US government to that tragedy. They did not rise to any level above “fear,” “prejudice,” and "greed."

Some human beings may have “the ability” … “to rise above this.” However, absent that ability in the power structures of the Western world, who, then is “to rise above”?

To pull self interest out of the power brokers seems most unlikely. You echo the fundamentals in “Danger of Religion” as you state: “Education is the means, knowledge is the only way to remedy any malfunction or malfeasance.”

“Where reason and evidence are turned aside in favor of dogma and claim absent evidence, danger prevails.” (JAK previoiusly)

Religious Intolerance

The Crusades played a major role in the evolution of Christianity today as did the conflating of religion and politics.

Roger asked:
“Might ‘Religion’ be a scape-goat?”

It is unlikely that religion is “a scape-goat.” It’s a major player in the evolution of cultures, priorities within those cultures, and policies imposed by those cultures.

In our lifetimes we have seen dogma and blind faith rush in to fill the vacuum left by absence of reason. That has allowed for the exercise of new forms of power more arbitrary and less derived from education and knowledge. Those with the knowledge are and were stifled by those who used power to impose dogma and blind faith.

JAK
_JAK
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Easy to Minimize Importance of The Crusades

Post by _JAK »

It is easy to underestimate and minimize the historical importance of the Crusades nearly 1,000 years after they began.

They were Christian military expeditions to recapture what they regarded as the Holy Land . Muslims held the land. The Crusades began shortly before 1100 A.D. and lasted until almost 1300. It’s a period of time only a little shorter than there has been a United States. The Crusades were aroused primarily by Christianity. The expeditions combined religion as part of the larger effort by Europeans to increase power, territory and riches.

The word crusade comes from the Latin word crux, meaning cross. Members of the expeditions sewed the symbol of the cross on tunics (outer clothing). The Crusades were a bloody, deadly business of the Christian religion.

Previously documented in other posts, the Crusades were of major importance to the perpetuation of the religion Christianity. While the Children’s Crusade (1212 A.D.) was not particularly important to history, nevertheless, its part of the tragedy of Christianity. The Children’s Crusade consisted of boys and girls impacted by religious fervor to go to the Holy Land. Many were less than 12 years old. (Dangers of Religion). There were two armies of them, one from France and one from Germany. None of the children reached the Holy Land. Many died of hunger, cold and disease on their long march sough to the Mediterranean Sea. Others were drowned in storms at sea or sold as slaves to Muslims. Few of the young crusaders ever returned to their homes.

The expeditions of the Crusades prepared Europe for expansion into America. They indoctrinated westerners with the way of life of the East. Europeans acquired new tastes in food and clothing, and their desire to travel increased.

Studies of the importance and impact of the Crusades are generally found in university courses of study which include them as part of the curriculum.

JAK
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

The Crusades played a major role in the evolution of Christianity today as did the conflating of religion and politics.


I'm not sure how much stock you put into the idea that the Crusades 'conflated' the religious and political landscapes of Europe and the Middle East, but I would tweak it and suggest that the Islamic Arabian and Islamic Turkish/Moorish precipitated Christiandom's response via the Crusades. I know I'm being extremely simplistic, but I don't think we should put the horse before the buggy when trying to make a point that "religion is dangerous". Every action has a precipitive action, but I think it's pretty safe to say that Islamic invasions have ranked among the most brutal, aggressive, punitive, and expantionistic political systems ever. Socio-politico-religious ideologies, or 'holistic systems', are the most effective when it comes to aggressive and genocidal campaigns against Others*. Religion, no doubt, at all, plays a very important role in that effort.

*Japan, Nazi Germany, Manifest Destiny, Mongols, Incas, Russia, Arabia, etc...
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_JAK
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Dangers of Religion

Post by _JAK »

antishock8 wrote:
The Crusades played a major role in the evolution of Christianity today as did the conflating of religion and politics.


I'm not sure how much stock you put into the idea that the Crusades 'conflated' the religious and political landscapes of Europe and the Middle East, but I would tweak it and suggest that the Islamic Arabian and Islamic Turkish/Moorish precipitated Christiandom's response via the Crusades. I know I'm being extremely simplistic, but I don't think we should put the horse before the buggy when trying to make a point that "religion is dangerous". Every action has a precipitive action, but I think it's pretty safe to say that Islamic invasions have ranked among the most brutal, aggressive, punitive, and expantionistic political systems ever. Socio-politico-religious ideologies, or 'holistic systems', are the most effective when it comes to aggressive and genocidal campaigns against Others*. Religion, no doubt, at all, plays a very important role in that effort.

*Japan, Nazi Germany, Manifest Destiny, Mongols, Incas, Russia, Arabia, etc...


It’s a good question as to what extent “Islamic Arabian and Islamic Turkish/Moorish precipitated Christendom’s response via the Crusades.”

Because of the historical distance from our time to that time, precise attribution to multiple causal links may be a point of view. As to the question of what religious groups have been “the most brutal, aggressive, punitive, and expansionistic,” it may well be a matter of who writes the history. “History” has been characterized as a point of view. As we observe the different accounts between the early American colonists and the British, that characterization becomes self-evident.

On this bb, the “account of history” by the official Mormon church differs from the account by impartial, dispassionate, and objective historical observances.

antishock8 states:
Religion, no doubt, at all, plays a very important role in that effort.


Yes, of course.

JAK
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

They were Christian military expeditions to recapture what they regarded as the Holy Land.

They were the first of its kind too. Never before, in Christianity's 1000 year history prior, was there ever a "Christian" army assembled. That in itself just goes to show how awkward this event was for Christianity. It was an act of desperation and self defense.
The Crusades began shortly before 1100 A.D. and lasted until almost 1300.It’s a period of time only a little shorter than there has been a United States.

The crusades were ineffective and sporadic. The most successful crusade was the first one. On the whole, however, the crusades proved effective because it bought Europe time. Eventually Islam's enemies to the east would divert its attention and its forces.
The Crusades were aroused primarily by Christianity.

What a stupid comment. "Christainity" is a religion. The Byzantine kings, who had been defeated left and right by Islam'c forces, pleaded with the Pope for support. This, coupled with reports about the atrocities committed upon Christians in Jerusalem, prompted the Pope to make a call for volunteers. That's right, the Crusades were comprised of volunteers from all over the continent, most of whom sacrificed all that they had in the process. The response was enormous, but it was highly disorganized. Again, the idea of a Christian army was so foreign to Christianity that this was akin to Amway calling all its representatives to volunteer in an invasion on Walmart. Most of the people would have no military training whatsoever. Their motive was one of good will, to defend the defenseless and to insure the survival of Christainity which had been eaten away by Islamic conquests for many centuries prior.
The expeditions combined religion as part of the larger effort by Europeans to increase power, territory and riches.

This is a myth propagated by the ignorant like JAK. Here is what one Crusade historian had to say about this:

"Historians used to believe that a rise in Europe’s population led to a crisis of too many noble “second sons,” those who were trained in chivalric warfare but who had no feudal lands to inherit. The Crusades, therefore, were seen as a safety valve, sending these belligerent men far from Europe where they could carve out lands for themselves at someone else’s expense. Modern scholarship, assisted by the advent of computer databases, has exploded this myth. We now know that it was the “first sons” of Europe that answered the pope’s call in 1095, as well as in subsequent Crusades. Crusading was an enormously expensive operation. Lords were forced to sell off or mortgage their lands to gather the necessary funds. They were also not interested in an overseas kingdom. Much like a soldier today, the medieval Crusader was proud to do his duty but longed to return home. After the spectacular successes of the First Crusade, with Jerusalem and much of Palestine in Crusader hands, virtually all of the Crusaders went home. Only a tiny handful remained behind to consolidate and govern the newly won territories. Booty was also scarce. In fact, although Crusaders no doubt dreamed of vast wealth in opulent Eastern cities, virtually none of them ever even recouped their expenses. But money and land were not the reasons that they went on Crusade in the first place. They went to atone for their sins and to win salvation by doing good works in a faraway land."

The Crusades were a bloody, deadly business of the Christian religion.

That's one biased and ignorant way of looking at it.

Previously documented in other posts, the Crusades were of major importance to the perpetuation of the religion Christianity.

For its "survival" is the better word.
The Children’s Crusade consisted of boys and girls impacted by religious fervor to go to the Holy Land. Many were less than 12 years old. (Dangers of Religion). There were two armies of them, one from France and one from Germany. None of the children reached the Holy Land. Many died of hunger, cold and disease on their long march sough to the Mediterranean Sea. Others were drowned in storms at sea or sold as slaves to Muslims. Few of the young crusaders ever returned to their homes.

This is an example of JAK's inability to produce facts in a straightforward, balanced manner. He begins to speak of two groups of children crusading, but what he doesn't tell you is that only with the smaller group is it speculated that "few returned home" and others suffered and died. There are no hard facts or figures about this, just speculation based on one's best guess. Further, he doesn't mention the much larger group of 30,000, most of whom returned home at the behest of the French King. He also doesn't tell you that many among the smaller group were beggars and theives who attached themselves to the movement as it traveled through village after village. So it wasn't as if their life expectancy was great even before marching across the continent.
The expeditions of the Crusades prepared Europe for expansion into America.

What an idiot. The only reason America was discovered was because Europe was trying to find new trade routes to India which had been blocked off by Islam. After 1493 the Muslims controlled Constantinople, which was the most important trading center between the east and west. Trades were permitted on Muslim terms only, so this was costing Europe in more ways than one since goods would trade hands several times before reaching the end user.

At this point we see a socio-economic agenda at work. Merchants thought they could find routes to the Orient that would prove profitable so Queen Isabella eventually agreed to fund the expedition that led to the discovery of America. To say there is some connection with this an the Crusades is absurd. It sounds like the Muslim argument that the crusades were just another product of colonialism. It seems clear JAK is merely browsing teh links he provided and cutting and pasting various points he takes for granted. He doesn't care much for critical thinking or independent research.
Studies of the importance and impact of the Crusades are generally found in university courses of study which include them as part of the curriculum.

Which Universities? Which course? Taught by whom? What do they say? If you know, then why cite Muslims and atheists like Farrell Till?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_huckelberry
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Post by _huckelberry »

A possibel summary would be the following. Wars are the result of people using reason and evince to solve economic and political difficulties. Religion is normally allied with reason and evidence so at times becomes involved with the wars human reason creates.

One stratagy to stop this link is to substite dogmatic unreason for political reasoning. March in a circle yelling no war no war. Should it be suprising that wars come and go, come and go, despite this stratagy?
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

JAK posted:

is the generalization which is unlikely: “We have the ability, as human beings to rise above this.”

Consider the 9/11 terrorist attack. While few would carry out such an atrocity, it takes only a few to make the “ability” you attribute to “human beings” untenable. Consider the response of the executive branch of the US government to that tragedy. They did not rise to any level above “fear,” “prejudice,” and "greed."

Some human beings may have “the ability” … “to rise above this.” However, absent that ability in the power structures of the Western world, who, then is “to rise above”?

RM: I 'think' we might be considering different time-frames. Generally, i think it will take much "education" over "time" that can be only guessed at, "...rise above this." Your reference to 9-11 is valid because of the leadership mentalities as they have been conditioned in the past by more indoctrination than education. Theirs was the typical response of Warriors. The "power structures of the Western world" have been developed over centuries. To restructure those "structures" seems to be a matter of necessity regardless of how long it takes to, "have the ability". As i have said before, humanity's hope is in coming generations. JAK, do you see any other options?

To pull self interest out of the power brokers seems most unlikely. RM: Agreed, as it now is, but must change. You echo the fundamentals in “Danger of Religion” as you state: “Education is the means, knowledge is the only way to remedy any malfunction or malfeasance.”

“Where reason and evidence are turned aside in favor of dogma and claim absent evidence, danger prevails.” (JAK previoiusly)

RM: Yes it does. BUT, knowledge and time can/will change that. A positive, current example: MLKJr's efforts brought radical change in quite short order... once the fuse was lit.

Religious Intolerance

The Crusades played a major role in the evolution of Christianity today as did the conflating of religion and politics.

Roger asked:
“Might ‘Religion’ be a scape-goat?”

It is unlikely that religion is “a scape-goat.” It’s a major player in the evolution of cultures, priorities within those cultures, and policies imposed by those cultures.

In our lifetimes we have seen dogma and blind faith rush in to fill the vacuum left by absence of reason. RM: What/where/when do you have in mind? That has allowed for the exercise of new forms of power more arbitrary and less derived from education and knowledge. Those with the knowledge are and were stifled by those who used power to impose dogma and blind faith. RM: Do you believe that it was solely religion that directed the "stiflling"? Explain please. Roger

JAK

_JAK
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Ability to Rise Above, Roger

Post by _JAK »

Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:58 am Date of Roger's post (I have wiped out your entire post but reproduced all of it)

Hi Roger,
The quote just below from you is one for which I have considerable skepticism. The “ability…to rise above this” must necessarily lie with the leaders who occupy elective office at the federal level. Since voters elect these people, the voters must collectively and by consensus make choices which put those with the “ability” which you call for into office. Is the part of the public which votes capable of that?


JAK posted:
Quote:
is the generalization which is unlikely: “We have the ability, as human beings to rise above this.”

Consider the 9/11 terrorist attack. While few would carry out such an atrocity, it takes only a few to make the “ability” you attribute to “human beings” untenable. Consider the response of the executive branch of the US government to that tragedy. They did not rise to any level above “fear,” “prejudice,” and "greed."

Some human beings may have “the ability” … “to rise above this.” However, absent that ability in the power structures of the Western world, who, then is “to rise above”?

RM: I 'think' we might be considering different time-frames. Generally, I think it will take much "education" over "time" that can be only guessed at, "...rise above this." Your reference to 9-11 is valid because of the leadership mentalities as they have been conditioned in the past by more indoctrination than education. Theirs was the typical response of Warriors. The "power structures of the Western world" have been developed over centuries. To restructure those "structures" seems to be a matter of necessity regardless of how long it takes to, "have the ability". As I have said before, humanity's hope is in coming generations. JAK, do you see any other options?

About what “time-frame” were you considering? “Much education” to be sure will be required. Without an informed electorate, those who are elected may achieve that by very high priced advertising which appeals to lowest common denominator in voters. I doubt that will produce the people to “have the ability.”

Someone observed that the most qualified to be at the highest levels of public office are not and would not run for those offices. That may be the case. It’s difficult to see “other options.”

When the current president was placed in office in 2000, he said in many speeches: I am a uniter not a divider. We know something about that we did not know in 2000 or in 2004. I appreciate your “hope” here. With 24/7 news dissection and talk radio as it is with much demagoguery, the voting public has a most difficult challenge to elect those who can “rise above.”


JAK previously:
To pull self interest out of the power brokers seems most unlikely. RM: Agreed, as it now is, but must change. You echo the fundamentals in “Danger of Religion” as you state: “Education is the means, knowledge is the only way to remedy any malfunction or malfeasance.”

“Where reason and evidence are turned aside in favor of dogma and claim absent evidence, danger prevails.” (JAK previously)

RM: Yes it does. BUT, knowledge and time can/will change that. A positive, current example: MLKJr's efforts brought radical change in quite short order... once the fuse was lit.

Do you think so? Without question your MLK Jr. reference is correct. And it is well documented that history does not move along like the second hand of a clock. There are spurts such as the very one you mention.

JAK previously:
Religious Intolerance (This was a website link in my original post.)

The Crusades played a major role in the evolution of Christianity today as did the conflating of religion and politics.

Roger asked:
“Might ‘Religion’ be a scape-goat?”

JAK previously:
It is unlikely that religion is “a scape-goat.” It’s a major player in the evolution of cultures, priorities within those cultures, and policies imposed by those cultures.

In our lifetimes we have seen dogma and blind faith rush in to fill the vacuum left by absence of reason. RM: What/where/when do you have in mind?

It happened after 9/11 when almost without question, a false case with false claims was made to take the nation to war in Iraq. The appeals were designed to short circuit the thinking process, to appeal to my country right or wrong with the stacking of false claims, appeal to anger, appeal to desire for revenge, get’em over there before we will have to get’em over here, and a blind faith in our national leaders.

It was a moment for thoughtful reflection and steadfast commitment to accurate information before decision and judgment. The moment passed and we got patriotic dogma and religious appeal and “God bless America!” While there were some, a few who were truly in the know, their voices were silenced or manipulated to parrot the party line.

It was a moment for great stature both in the US and in the world of nations. But a vacuum left by absence of reason was filled with blind faith in the president’s word and that of his minions.


JAK previously:
That has allowed for the exercise of new forms of power more arbitrary and less derived from education and knowledge. Those with the knowledge are and were stifled by those who used power to impose dogma and blind faith. RM: Do you believe that it was solely religion that directed the "stiflling"? Explain please. Roger

Not necessarily “solely,” but it was a major player and most of the country was blinded, deliberately blinded, by those who were informed with information which they rejected. Those who had that courage and “ability” to speak truth to power, were crushed by power, and the nation and the world is much the poorer for it.

Had we had a different president and the best information (most accurate) given, we might have had a different result. You mentioned that time will be required. I suspect you are right in that. Will the next president respond with that “ability to rise above” when confronted with a crisis calling for that “ability”?


JAK
_Roger Morrison
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Re: Ability to Rise Above, Roger

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi JAK, i'll try your technique :-) I'm in bold???

Hi Roger,
The quote just below from you is one for which I have considerable skepticism. The “ability…to rise above this” must necessarily lie with the leaders who occupy elective office at the federal level. Since voters elect these people, the voters must collectively and by consensus make choices which put those with the “ability” which you call for into office. Is the part of the public which votes capable of that?


RM: I think, "in time". "How long" remains the question. Once again, "Education" is the answer/means to any righteous ;-) end. And, such reformation/progress is in the hands of 'significant' people. (We don't need a plethora of such folks :-) As well too is catastrophe as history displays. There is the gullible-public, but again knowledge is the remedy. Stupid traditions and beliefs may die slowly. But they eventually do, or we wouldn't be communicating as we are, and we would find our entertainment at public hangings.


About what “time-frame” were you considering? RM: Generation(s)?? “Much education” to be sure will be required. Without an informed electorate, those who are elected may achieve that by very high priced advertising which appeals to lowest common denominator in voters. I doubt that will produce the people to “have the ability.”

RM: "...high priced advertising..." another term for "Education"? It appears to me that the value of human life is higher today than ever before, generally speaking. Mothers (parents?) are having more difficulty sending their sons and daughters to war. The glories of combat and death for God-&-Country are looked at with askance as never before. Daily fatalities are counted by single digits when in WWII, and others, it was by the thousands. This alone indicates to me that common pain is felt in every "denominator" level.

Someone observed that the most qualified to be at the highest levels of public office are not and would not run for those offices. That may be the case. It’s difficult to see “other options.”

RM: So it has been said. Too "folks get the leaders they deserve." Socrates/Plato/XYZ said to the effect, "Democracy will end in Mobocracy." Maybe Marx was correct? We just haven't got there yet?? IF/WHEN "it's difficult to see..." then as thinking creative beings WE must look harder--more seriously. Don't you think?

When the current president was placed in office in 2000, he said in many speeches: I am a uniter not a divider. We know something about that we did not know in 2000 or in 2004. I appreciate your “hope” here. With 24/7 news dissection and talk radio as it is with much demagoguery, the voting public has a most difficult challenge to elect those who can “rise above.”


RM: True, but folks have a way of rising to challenges. Me thinks most are smarter now than before. "Fool some...but not all, all of the time."

Do you think so? Without question your MLK Jr. reference is correct. And it is well documented that history does not move along like the second hand of a clock. There are spurts such as the very one you mention.


JAK previously:
It is unlikely that religion is “a scape-goat.” It’s a major player in the evolution of cultures, priorities within those cultures, and policies imposed by those cultures.

In our lifetimes we have seen dogma and blind faith rush in to fill the vacuum left by absence of reason. RM: What/where/when do you have in mind?

It happened after 9/11 when almost without question, a false case with false claims was made to take the nation to war in Iraq. The appeals were designed to short circuit the thinking process, to appeal to my country right or wrong with the stacking of false claims, appeal to anger, appeal to desire for revenge, get’em over there before we will have to get’em over here, and a blind faith in our national leaders.

It was a moment for thoughtful reflection and steadfast commitment to accurate information before decision and judgment. The moment passed and we got patriotic dogma and religious appeal and “God bless America!” While there were some, a few who were truly in the know, their voices were silenced or manipulated to parrot the party line.

It was a moment for great stature both in the US and in the world of nations. But a vacuum left by absence of reason was filled with blind faith in the president’s word and that of his minions.


RM: "...once was blind but now we see..." This "God bless America" stuff is wearing thinner by the utterance, i venture to say. Especially abroad, as well with the "thinking new generation" of Americans, such as yourself. Of course there's resistance from die-hards. But even they don't live forever...

JAK previously:
That has allowed for the exercise of new forms of power more arbitrary and less derived from education and knowledge. Those with the knowledge are and were stifled by those who used power to impose dogma and blind faith. RM: Do you believe that it was solely religion that directed the "stiflling"? Explain please. Roger

Not necessarily “solely,” but it was a major player and most of the country was blinded, deliberately blinded, by those who were informed with information which they rejected. Those who had that courage and “ability” to speak truth to power, were crushed by power, and the nation and the world is much the poorer for it.

Had we had a different president and the best information (most accurate) given, we might have had a different result. You mentioned that time will be required. I suspect you are right in that. Will the next president respond with that “ability to rise above” when confronted with a crisis calling for that “ability”?


RM: Let's hope so. But eventually someone will. Maybe, not "...peace in our time." But some other time... Warm regards, Roger
JAK[/quote]
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