Mountain Meadows

[_Blixa]

As for suggesting that Charity is overlooking the suffering of "real people." I seriously doubt she sees the Fancher descendants as anything but anti-mormons.

This is why the church will not grow; Led by arrogant idiots, who will not admit mistakes and think they are the best thing happened to Planet.
Fine with me, While I'll be not happy to see them (LDS) wither, it is inevitable.

In defense of other LDS, Charity's views on this subject do not represent all LDS. For all the Mormons who participated or wanted to cover it up, there were many others who would not have participated and after it happened, would not let the crime be forgotten. When the makeshift monuments were destroyed, they were rebuilt--so it would not be lost to history. It was Juanita Brooks, an active LDS person who researched Mountain Meadows and gave historians today a solid wealth of information to work from.

That's quite true and aside from Juanita Brooks's well known efforts, which at the time were hampered by church officials, the story of the role of lesser known and unknown Mormons in both the event and its historical reconstruction is hardly ever noted. In fact, the church need not put the spin on the event that they have; they have a better story to tell, and why they haven't is worth thinking about.

I also think charity's remarks are at great odds with the attitude displayed by now President Henry B. Eyring at the commemoration of the 150th anniversary. While I was not that impressed with the speech that he read (something he himself did not write; he made clear that he had been asked to read it only at the last minute), I think he was sincere in his personal expression of sadness and horror. That was clear from his manner.

Some further commentary on the two sections of monument: The Dan Sill Hill monument was built nearly ten years prior to the recent reconstruction of the siege area cairn. It was the result of efforts by Fancher and Lee descendants (working with the LDS church, obviously). The work was conceived and carried out under the auspices of the Mountain Meadows Association, a group that has been split apart and reconstituted many times since its formation in 1989: its been plagued by not only ideological division but personal ego fights. The idea was to create something which gave more of a view (in several senses of the word) of the event, thus the construction on the overlooking hillside. The original cairn below was not in great shape, erosion had brought a stream bed very close and in a few years the surrounding wall of the 1932 monument was threatening to slide down into it (if you see the documentary "Burying the Past" you will see good footage of what the '32 monument looked like around 1999).

Also important to the design was listing the names of those known to have been killed (the number and names of every possible victim are impossible to determine: the list of members of the group which Alexander Fancher probably had was likely destroyed by either Lee or Hamblin). This part of the monument has several mistakes in it: one that I remember is that it gives creedence to the old myth of a surviving orphan getting left behind and being raised a Mormon. The passive wording of the text was also controversial. The later additions of plaques on the trial up to the overlook are also problematic. I don't have a scanner or I could post my photos of the attempts of passersby to correct misinformation there (about Indian involvement). While the Dan Sill Hill monument does offer the advantage of the vista (look how far they marched to their deaths), it falls far short of even giving a correct summary. I do, though, find it better than the 1999 cairn which was supposed to be a reconstruction of the original. Well its not, either in size or detail. And it too has the cagey language of avoidance of information. Its also poorly built. It was cracking by 2003, when I saw it last September, the cracks had gotten a great deal wider. It will need its own reconstruction, soon.

There are efforts underway to make a third memorial site at the place where an army cairn buried another group of bodies. I don't know all the details of who is making decisions (three different groups are involved) and how far these decisions have gone---this project only got kicked off last September. Interestingly enough the problem here may come from a private company who has a plan to build, if you can believe it, a housing development near this other grave site: Mountain Meadow Estates. If they are successful then I suppose some day in the future we may see a Mountain Meadows First Ward.

[_beastie]

That's quite true and aside from Juanita Brooks's well known efforts, which at the time were hampered by church officials, the story of the role of lesser known and unknown Mormons in both the event and its historical reconstruction is hardly ever noted. In fact, the church need not put the spin on the event that they have; they have a better story to tell, and why they haven't is worth thinking about.

I think that the reason they've resisted telling ANY story about it is due to the fact that the LDS church has evolved to be, in some aspects, a cult of leadership. No matter how vigorously the MADdites deny it, LDS membership are taught that their leaders receive direction straight from God and they should obey those same leaders. What MMM reveals, even aside from BY's involvement, is that LDS leaders were about as wrong as a human being can be. And their loyal followers obeyed, just as they had been taught to do.

[_Dr. Shades]

Blixa:

Thanks for all the good information about the Lee rumor. It's good to let falsehoods be laid to rest.

[_Blixa]

That's quite true and aside from Juanita Brooks's well known efforts, which at the time were hampered by church officials, the story of the role of lesser known and unknown Mormons in both the event and its historical reconstruction is hardly ever noted. In fact, the church need not put the spin on the event that they have; they have a better story to tell, and why they haven't is worth thinking about.

I think that the reason they've resisted telling ANY story about it is due to the fact that the LDS church has evolved to be, in some aspects, a cult of leadership. No matter how vigorously the MADdites deny it, LDS membership are taught that their leaders receive direction straight from God and they should obey those same leaders. What MMM reveals, even aside from BY's involvement, is that LDS leaders were about as wrong as a human being can be. And their loyal followers obeyed, just as they had been taught to do.

I think that is part of it, if they tell the story of those who did act better, then it casts the others in an even worse light. It also opens to door to questions about why those who acted as they did did so. It is sad because there are Mormon heroes in the story and I don't think they will ever be officially acknowledged. Juanita Brooks has been rehabilitated to some degree recently, not so much on her own merits, but as an ideological weapon against more recent historians---i.e., she supposedly absolves BY. Of course she doesn't entirely: she is clear about how deeply implicated he was in the cover up and clearly appalled at his decision to sacrifice Lee. Her term is "an accessory after the fact." Further, she points out that while she doesn't think that BY and George A. Smith specifically ordered the massacre, "they did preach sermons and set up social conditions which made it possible."

In one of the final passages in her book, Brooks writes: "It seems that, once having taken a stand and put forth a story, the leaders of the Mormon church have felt that they should maintain it, regardless of all the evience to the contrary." I think this is likely still the case in large part. The stand they have taken has made it impossible to tell what is to my mind a much better, and much more inspiring, story.

[_Blixa]

Blixa:

Thanks for all the good information about the Lee rumor. It's good to let falsehoods be laid to rest.

Your're more than welcome.

Its ironic that Jacob Hamblin, who wasn't even in Southern Utah when it all went down, comes off as one of the worst actors in the drama as a whole. Like Lee, he's a complicated figure with both good and ill in his final account. But man, did he ever hold a grudge. Yet, I have to say, Lee also made it easy to hold one: the man was nothing if not the very definition of overweening.

[_Dr. Shades]

Its ironic that Jacob Hamblin, who wasn't even in Southern Utah when it all went down, comes off as one of the worst actors in the drama as a whole. Like Lee, he's a complicated figure with both good and ill in his final account. But man, did he ever hold a grudge.

So, what was his grudge against Lee, and how did it come about?

[_Blixa]

Its ironic that Jacob Hamblin, who wasn't even in Southern Utah when it all went down, comes off as one of the worst actors in the drama as a whole. Like Lee, he's a complicated figure with both good and ill in his final account. But man, did he ever hold a grudge.

So, what was his grudge against Lee, and how did it come about?

Oh lots of things--I can go into detail if you like next time I see you. Without drawing things out: property disputes, disputes over status and who got credit for things and/or better assignments from headquarters. He was also clear about who he felt shared more blame in the massacre and insinuated in public about Hamblin's Albert and Hamblin's lies to the army.

I also think Lee's sexual bragging put everybody off. He was very grabby about acquiring wives, but then that wasn't all that unusual among those with higher status or otherwise favored by the authorities. But I've never run across any saint from the period who seemed to be as vocal about his sexual habits as Lee. The people whose journals and diaries I've read were no prudes, nor did they favor Victorian euphemisms and uptight language. I mean you've read BY going on about fly turds and s*** pots, we all have. Still, Lee is the only person who is ever mentioned as boasting in detail about his prodigious sexual appetites and abilities. A story about Lee claiming to have "frigged" one of his wives 20 times in one night even ends up in some Seventies minutes! He was vain and tactless and his fall was probably relished by many outside of the MMM connection.

[_BishopRic]

Its ironic that Jacob Hamblin, who wasn't even in Southern Utah when it all went down, comes off as one of the worst actors in the drama as a whole. Like Lee, he's a complicated figure with both good and ill in his final account. But man, did he ever hold a grudge.

So, what was his grudge against Lee, and how did it come about?

Oh lots of things--I can go into detail if you like next time I see you. Without drawing things out: property disputes, disputes over status and who got credit for things and/or better assignments from headquarters. He was also clear about who he felt shared more blame in the massacre and insinuated in public about Hamblin's Albert and Hamblin's lies to the army.

I also think Lee's sexual bragging put everybody off. He was very grabby about acquiring wives, but then that wasn't all that unusual among those with higher status or otherwise favored by the authorities. But I've never run across any saint from the period who seemed to be as vocal about his sexual habits as Lee. The people whose journals and diaries I've read were no prudes, nor did they favor Victorian euphemisms and uptight language. I mean you've read BY going on about fly turds and s*** pots, we all have. Still, Lee is the only person who is ever mentioned as boasting in detail about his prodigious sexual appetites and abilities. A story about Lee claiming to have "frigged" one of his wives 20 times in one night even ends up in some Seventies minutes! He was vain and tactless and his fall was probably relished by many outside of the MMM connection.

Du-u-u-ude! Did his writings speak of some Mormon viagra plant?! I'm sure there's a business opportunity there....I can hear it now:

"From the Mormon polygamy days comes the secret to male sexual recovery to satisfy the next wife! All natural "Mormon tea" formula...!"

(of course it will be available through MLMs only...)

(smile) (sorry for the digression....)

[_Blixa]

Hey no digression...that's what made the rape rumor such an especially personal dig. And to be fair, I think a lot of women really did go for Lee, too.

[_BishopRic]

Hey no digression...that's what made the rape rumor such an especially personal dig. And to be fair, I think a lot of women really did go for Lee, too.

...in search of the Mormon tea...heading down to Panguitch...