LDS doctrines/principles open to personal interpretation?

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_Boaz & Lidia
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Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

harmony wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:
harmony wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:
harmony wrote:It helps if you also believe he is God.
Who? Jesus?

Are you saying that your belief is that Jesus and God are the same?


Christ is God. So is Heavenly Father. So is the Holy Ghost.

You live. You'll die. You'll be buried. You'll be resurrected (not sure on what day). Christ did all that. Those things are not what make him God.
WTF? All three together are "god"?


I said nothing about "together".

So then, according to the fallacious first vision facade, did two gods appear to Smith? or was it god and his son?


I suggest you ask Joseph when you get the chance.
Joe is dead, just like Gordon. No dice.

Is the way you are using the word god to mean a title?

Is Elohim more GOD than Jesus? And Jesus more GOD than the HG? How can he HG be (a) GOD if he/she/it never got a body?
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:Is the way you are using the word god to mean a title?

Is Elohim more GOD than Jesus? And Jesus more GOD than the HG? How can he HG be (a) GOD if he/she/it never got a body?


There is no "more" God. There is God. Jesus was God before he was a man. The Holy Ghost is God and has never been a man.

And no, the KFD is not canonized nor is it binding.
_Boaz & Lidia
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Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

harmony wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:Is the way you are using the word god to mean a title?

Is Elohim more GOD than Jesus? And Jesus more GOD than the HG? How can he HG be (a) GOD if he/she/it never got a body?


There is no "more" God. There is God. Jesus was God before he was a man. The Holy Ghost is God and has never been a man.

And no, the KFD is not canonized nor is it binding.
The context in which you use the word god is confusing.

Do you mean Jesus was a god and the HG is a god?
_ludwigm
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Post by _ludwigm »

harmony wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:Is the way you are using the word god to mean a title?
Is Elohim more GOD than Jesus? And Jesus more GOD than the HG? How can he HG be (a) GOD if he/she/it never got a body?
There is no "more" God. There is God. Jesus was God before he was a man. The Holy Ghost is God and has never been a man.
And no, the KFD is not canonized nor is it binding.

"There is no "more" God."
- Joseph Smith has met with two of them, in the same time. Which of them was "more" god than another?

"As man is, God was before."
- Which one was that god? Jehovah? Elohim? Jesus? HG? Trinity?

As I have written before, apparently I don't understand simple english sentences.
What does "KFD" mean? What does "more" mean?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

ludwigm wrote:
harmony wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:Is the way you are using the word god to mean a title?
Is Elohim more GOD than Jesus? And Jesus more GOD than the HG? How can he HG be (a) GOD if he/she/it never got a body?
There is no "more" God. There is God. Jesus was God before he was a man. The Holy Ghost is God and has never been a man.
And no, the KFD is not canonized nor is it binding.

"There is no "more" God."
- Joseph Smith has met with two of them, in the same time. Which of them was "more" god than another?

"As man is, God was before."
- Which one was that god? Jehovah? Elohim? Jesus? HG? Trinity?

As I have written before, apparently I don't understand simple english sentences.
What does "KFD" mean? What does "more" mean?


KFD is the King Follett Discourse wherein Joseph Smith talked about eternal progression and "god" once being a man. Jesus and Heavenly Father are both considered Gods, at least that is my understanding: Heavenly Father being the father god of Jesus the son god. I am confused by harmony's phrasing as well (that they are both "god" singular). I find the belief confusing too and have wondered about the Jesus = Jehovah of the Old Testament, Heavenly Father = Elohim part. If part of advancing to godhood is the gaining of a body then how was Jesus a god prior to his incarnation and resurrection? Perhaps someone could explain that to me.I'm not interested in arguing the point, I'm just curious about the explanation.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

May I remain a member if I
- Pay 10% tithes on net-net?
- Drink beer?
- Drink coffee and tea?
- Wear garmies only during temple work?
- Opt out of temple work for the dead?
- Opt out of HT/VT?
- Think of Monson as only the president and not the prophet?


We are discussing three different things: Becoming a member, remaining a member, getting a TRI.

To become a member, (If I recall correctly), one must state that they believe in the LDS church (restoration, Joseph Smith, etc), pay tithing, obey the WoW, and be obedient to a few rules (morally clean, etc).

Once someone is a member they can do or believe anything that is not an excommunicable offence (have sex outside marriage, speak out against the church, be a child abuser, etc), and remain a member. (It does appear however that, for the most part, they only excommunicate active members).

To attend the temple one must have a TRI... this is more specific. One must properly answer the TRI questions. In other words, they must say that they do indeed wear the garment day and night, pay tithing, obey the WoW, attend their meetings, have a testimony the church is true, sustain the leaders, etc. etc. etc. etc.

To get a TR, one does not have to be a VT/HT, attend the temple, or anything else that is not specifically asked in the TRI.

Now, the actually questions in the TRI have some wiggle room. If I recall correctly there was a temple going woman on FAIR who stated she drank tea and the bishop had no problem with it. If you say that you pay tithing, then the bishop is supposed to take your word for it. If you say you believe in the church (but have your own interpretation of what this means), it doesn't much matter so long as you keep it to yourself. You can be nasty and cruel but if you don't think that makes you unworthy to go to the temple then you are good to go.

Basically, to be a TR holding member, you have to state that you obey and believe a few specific things. My observation is that members can interpret these things in various ways, and discuss or not discuss them with their bishop depending on their circumstance.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:
harmony wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:
harmony wrote:It helps if you also believe he is God.
Who? Jesus?

Are you saying that your belief is that Jesus and God are the same?


Christ is God. So is Heavenly Father. So is the Holy Ghost.

You live. You'll die. You'll be buried. You'll be resurrected (not sure on what day). Christ did all that. Those things are not what make him God.
WTF? All three together are "god"?

So then, according to the fallacious first vision facade, did two gods appear to Smith? or was it god and his son?


WOW!! No wonder and the first sign of problem PP crumbled and is now and angry man. He does not even understand what is doctrine, what is practice and LDS teachings about the Godhead. Hmmmm.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Blixa wrote:If part of advancing to godhood is the gaining of a body then how was Jesus a god prior to his incarnation and resurrection? Perhaps someone could explain that to me.I'm not interested in arguing the point, I'm just curious about the explanation.


Jesus is a special case as far as the progression to Godhood is concerned. He was chosen before the world was. He was chosen to be God's only begotten. It is also believed that Jesus is the oldest son of Elohim.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

truth dancer wrote:
May I remain a member if I
- Pay 10% tithes on net-net?
- Drink beer?
- Drink coffee and tea?
- Wear garmies only during temple work?
- Opt out of temple work for the dead?
- Opt out of HT/VT?
- Think of Monson as only the president and not the prophet?


We are discussing three different things: Becoming a member, remaining a member, getting a TRI.

To become a member, (If I recall correctly), one must state that they believe in the LDS church (restoration, Joseph Smith, etc), pay tithing, obey the WoW, and be obedient to a few rules (morally clean, etc).

Once someone is a member they can do or believe anything that is not an excommunicable offence (have sex outside marriage, speak out against the church, be a child abuser, etc), and remain a member. (It does appear however that, for the most part, they only excommunicate active members).

To attend the temple one must have a TRI... this is more specific. One must properly answer the TRI questions. In other words, they must say that they do indeed wear the garment day and night, pay tithing, obey the WoW, attend their meetings, have a testimony the church is true, sustain the leaders, etc. etc. etc. etc.

To get a TR, one does not have to be a VT/HT, attend the temple, or anything else that is not specifically asked in the TRI.

Now, the actually questions in the TRI have some wiggle room. If I recall correctly there was a temple going woman on FAIR who stated she drank tea and the bishop had no problem with it. If you say that you pay tithing, then the bishop is supposed to take your word for it. If you say you believe in the church (but have your own interpretation of what this means), it doesn't much matter so long as you keep it to yourself. You can be nasty and cruel but if you don't think that makes you unworthy to go to the temple then you are good to go.

Basically, to be a TR holding member, you have to state that you obey and believe a few specific things. My observation is that members can interpret these things in various ways, and discuss or not discuss them with their bishop depending on their circumstance.

~dancer~


Thank you for the explanation, TD. You nailed it. ;)
_harmony
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

ludwigm wrote:
harmony wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:Is the way you are using the word god to mean a title?
Is Elohim more GOD than Jesus? And Jesus more GOD than the HG? How can he HG be (a) GOD if he/she/it never got a body?
There is no "more" God. There is God. Jesus was God before he was a man. The Holy Ghost is God and has never been a man.
And no, the KFD is not canonized nor is it binding.

"There is no "more" God."
- Joseph Smith has met with two of them, in the same time. Which of them was "more" god than another?


Neither.

"As man is, God was before."
- Which one was that god? Jehovah? Elohim? Jesus? HG? Trinity?


LDS do not believe in the concept of a trinity.

As I have written before, apparently I don't understand simple english sentences.
What does "KFD" mean? What does "more" mean?


King Follett Discourse.

Ask Boaz what "more" means. He's the one who used it first. I took it to mean Elohim is more of a God than Jesus is, which is why I said there is no "more". There is simply God.

Mostly this exchange was just me succinctly jabbing at Boaz, so I'll come down from my sniping and try to explain a bit better, since my jabbing is obviously confusing other folks.

My understanding is that "God" is a priesthood calling, like priest or deacon. No one is "more" of a deacon than any other deacon, so I was poking at Boaz's "more" comment. There are only three currently who hold that calling: Elohim, Jesus/Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost (whose name I've never heard).

And no, there is little to no scriptural basis for the explanation. That's just the way it was explained to me.
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