Belief In God -- Satisfy A Need?

[_Some Schmo]

Is it appropriate to strip [god belief] from them? Why or why not?

This is a good question for which there isn’t a clear cut answer.

To me, it boils down to whether the held beliefs that keep the individual happy are beliefs that harm others. That’s the only criterion that matters to me.

But here’s the thing: the respect that is afforded people which dictates not challenging them on their irrational beliefs is the very thing that allows the collateral damage associated with harmful beliefs. In other words, because we regard religious beliefs as somehow sacred and untouchable, we throw a net of permissiveness over all unverifiable beliefs, whether they are harmful or not. Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris have articulated this idea very well in their books.

Here’s the question: are people better off finding comfort in real things, or fake things? Personally, I believe it’s more healthful to live morally based on tangible, realistic information rather than fairy tales. I believe that a sense of well being and contentedness are a result of feeling personally responsible and in control, which is not as likely if one submits to an invisible, unpredictable entity.

The real answer to your question, for me, is that sometimes I feel like the world would be better off without the god fantasy, and other times, I just don’t care, as long as those irrational beliefs don’t harm my family.

[_BishopRic]

I think we create the need for meaning by creating contrast. In other words, in our upbringing, we are told (at least in Mormonism) that "this life on Earth is but a spec in our total eternal existence..." So we would be foolish not to do all in our power to behave the way we should to make the rest of our existence better.

I've also heard "I don't know if I could live without the gospel...," implying that without the "plan" it lays out, how and why should we even continue this life?

Right, I've heard that too. On and off-line. I just don't know if I'm willing to challenge their notions. If someone finds comfort (in whatever it is and it doesn't hurt others) is it appropriate to try to rid this from them? Or maybe appropriate isn't the right word. Is it necessary? Is it cruel? Is it just forcing them to "grow up" -- as I've seen it stated by other atheists?

I've vasilated on this one, and here's my position today (could change tomorrow -- or even later today!):

We all live with stories. We learn to attach meaning and cause to everything that happens to us and around us. People tell us their ideas of cause and effect, some of them are very smart, and others not. We tend to believe our parents more than most others, so the generational mythological teachings die hard. And it's really only been the last few hundred years that most of humanity has had a chance for a real education, so all this "truth" stuff is quite new!

I venture to say that most of what we believe is false. Religion is only one of the myths we believe, but it tries to encompass more than most stories in our lives. Let me give an example that I face every day.

I'm an eye doctor. I see patients every day that come in with "blurred vision." The cause ranges from near-sightedness to cataracts. After ten years of specific training, I think I understand the causes pretty well, and of course I give the patient the explanation of the cause and the best treatment for it. A high percentage of the time, they respond with "well, I believe in natural treatments for "X," so I won't be needing that...."

Many of my colleagues argue and try to debate them with studies and science. My approach is a bit different. Their mind is made up, so if I fight them, I lose any possibility of helping them. I often say "okay, go ahead and do your treatment...at the least, we don't think it will harm you (if it won't); please let me know how it turns out, and if you'd like my help, come back anytime...."

To me, if a person is not asking for my opinion or my help, I don't think I can usually teach them much. I tend to operate by the principle that if what they do is not harmful to themselves or others, I probably won't intervene. Of course there are exceptions, but that's another thread. I approach religion the same way.

I had to play with this after I had a very quick transition out (at least intellectually and spiritually) of the LDS church in the mid 90s, and it took a while to work this out. Funny thing, after my metamorphasis, I really do about the same things I did back then, but with very different interpretations of why. I have the same kind of excitement when I watch the Utah Jazz or the Utes win games. I feel very bonded and close to my kids when I spend good times with them. I really empathize with the pain and fear my kids experience (I watched my oldest daughter have surgery last week, and she really struggled, and I thought I was going to need the meds after!).

I hope your daughter is okay now! And you too. :)

Thank you for this! Yes, she did well, and so did I...eventually.

You're absolutely correct -- we all find comfort in different things. Yet, does that comfort have to come from something not supernatural? If it is supernatural and it brings comfort must it be stripped from them? I'm thinking of arguments I've heard that this belief is merely an emotional (or psychological) crutch -- yet, why in and of itself is this a bad thing?

I tend to agree. Today I find myself doing things that make me "feel good," just for the feeling...not because I am supposed to. What used to be "selfish" I see as very appropriate and okay. I think as a rule, if we are happy, we are more helpful to others...just a fact of life!

[_Moniker]

Is it appropriate to strip [god belief] from them? Why or why not?

This is a good question for which there isn’t a clear cut answer.

Isn't that frustrating?! ;)

To me, it boils down to whether the held beliefs that keep the individual happy are beliefs that harm others. That’s the only criterion that matters to me.

I think that's what it boils down to for me, as well. Yet, of course I want to delve off into the concerns of society that may be impacted by these beliefs. There are plenty of ways where we can see public policy shaped by religious beliefs that do seem to harm society. Hmm.. I can sort of argue out of both sides on this one. Just look at the "religion a danger" thread. :)

But here’s the thing: the respect that is afforded people which dictates not challenging them on their irrational beliefs is the very thing that allows the collateral damage associated with harmful beliefs. In other words, because we regard religious beliefs as somehow sacred and untouchable, we throw a net of permissiveness over all unverifiable beliefs, whether they are harmful or not. Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris have articulated this idea very well in their books.

Right! That's where I'm sort of stuck right now! I'm sort of on the fence. Teetering back and forth, actually. :)

Here’s the question: are people better off finding comfort in real things, or fake things? Personally, I believe it’s more healthful to live morally based on tangible, realistic information rather than fairy tales. I believe that a sense of well being and contentedness are a result of feeling personally responsible and in control, which is not as likely if one submits to an invisible, unpredictable entity.

I would assume "real things" would be preferable to "fake". Yet, if they're already invested in this God belief is it necessary to strip it from them? I think reaching those that don't wrap their entire notion about said beliefs would be the ones that could be reached. I would be very hesitant to strip a God belief from someone at a funeral home!!!

The real answer to your question, for me, is that sometimes I feel like the world would be better off without the god fantasy, and other times, I just don’t care, as long as those irrational beliefs don’t harm my family.

I sort of agree, and then again, sort of not... :) I see so much policy derived from religious beliefs that I really am more concerned about how our society and world is shaped by these beliefs.

Ack! I wish I wasn't such a wussy!

[_Scottie]

To me, it boils down to whether the held beliefs that keep the individual happy are beliefs that harm others. That’s the only criterion that matters to me.

So do you turn into Will and start targeting based on countenance who you believe is unhappy with their religious beliefs? How do you know when someone is unhappy, and that their religious beliefs are making them so?

Mon, this is a great question and BR, those were great posts!

As for me, I've always wondered about the old saying, "There are no atheists in a foxhole". I really wonder if I will pray to God when my own death is impending.

Does anyone here have wartime experience that can speak to this? Is that a true statement? I have never been in anything close to a war or a dangerous situation where I've genuinely feared for my life. I've heard that when you are faced with death, many basic instincts override our "civilized" persona in the interest of self preservation. Is the belief in a God one of those basic instincts?

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Moniker, a thoughtful, and important topic. Interesting responses. I'll be back when time permits... Warm regards, Roger

[_Some Schmo]

To me, it boils down to whether the held beliefs that keep the individual happy are beliefs that harm others. That’s the only criterion that matters to me.

So do you turn into Will and start targeting based on countenance who you believe is unhappy with their religious beliefs? How do you know when someone is unhappy, and that their religious beliefs are making them so?

It appears you misread what I wrote, bud.

But if I were inclined to try to change the world, I wouldn't target people; I'd target their harmful beliefs.

I never fail to be amazed at how people tend to conflate their being with their beliefs. It's really quite fascinating. I shouldn't be surprised by it, but I am.

[_Moniker]

I think we create the need for meaning by creating contrast. In other words, in our upbringing, we are told (at least in Mormonism) that "this life on Earth is but a spec in our total eternal existence..." So we would be foolish not to do all in our power to behave the way we should to make the rest of our existence better.

I've also heard "I don't know if I could live without the gospel...," implying that without the "plan" it lays out, how and why should we even continue this life?

Right, I've heard that too. On and off-line. I just don't know if I'm willing to challenge their notions. If someone finds comfort (in whatever it is and it doesn't hurt others) is it appropriate to try to rid this from them? Or maybe appropriate isn't the right word. Is it necessary? Is it cruel? Is it just forcing them to "grow up" -- as I've seen it stated by other atheists?

I've vasilated on this one, and here's my position today (could change tomorrow -- or even later today!):

So glad I'm not the only one that does this!! :)

We all live with stories. We learn to attach meaning and cause to everything that happens to us and around us. People tell us their ideas of cause and effect, some of them are very smart, and others not. We tend to believe our parents more than most others, so the generational mythological teachings die hard. And it's really only been the last few hundred years that most of humanity has had a chance for a real education, so all this "truth" stuff is quite new!

I venture to say that most of what we believe is false. Religion is only one of the myths we believe, but it tries to encompass more than most stories in our lives.

I agree! I stated earlier that I "believe" things -- well, just because! I have no reliable evidence, necessarily, proof etc... it just is something that makes life easier for me to handle when I have whatever belief that may be.

Let me give an example that I face every day.

I'm an eye doctor. I see patients every day that come in with "blurred vision." The cause ranges from near-sightedness to cataracts. After ten years of specific training, I think I understand the causes pretty well, and of course I give the patient the explanation of the cause and the best treatment for it. A high percentage of the time, they respond with "well, I believe in natural treatments for "X," so I won't be needing that...."

Many of my colleagues argue and try to debate them with studies and science. My approach is a bit different. Their mind is made up, so if I fight them, I lose any possibility of helping them. I often say "okay, go ahead and do your treatment...at the least, we don't think it will harm you (if it won't); please let me know how it turns out, and if you'd like my help, come back anytime...."

To me, if a person is not asking for my opinion or my help, I don't think I can usually teach them much. I tend to operate by the principle that if what they do is not harmful to themselves or others, I probably won't intervene. Of course there are exceptions, but that's another thread. I approach religion the same way.

I think that's a healthy way to approach it! I know I deal with a lot of silly superstitions in my neck of the woods -- they don't hurt anyone. People still water douse all the time here. Does it hurt them? Naw! It's silly -- unreliable, and has actually been refuted. Does it HURT anyone? NO!

I have a silly thing I believe -- I believe things just always sort of seem to work out in my life for the better. This is PURELY on faith. I am not religious, do not believe in blessings, do not look for omens, etc... I just have this OUTLOOK because it helps me with struggles. Is there anything to rely upon this notion? NO! I believe it because it helps me. That's it. Does it hurt others? NO! Does it hurt me? NO! It allows me to carry on (during darker days) with the belief all would be well. I don't dismiss beliefs that HELP people that hurt no one else.

You're absolutely correct -- we all find comfort in different things. Yet, does that comfort have to come from something not supernatural? If it is supernatural and it brings comfort must it be stripped from them? I'm thinking of arguments I've heard that this belief is merely an emotional (or psychological) crutch -- yet, why in and of itself is this a bad thing?

I tend to agree. Today I find myself doing things that make me "feel good," just for the feeling...not because I am supposed to. What used to be "selfish" I see as very appropriate and okay. I think as a rule, if we are happy, we are more helpful to others...just a fact of life![/quote]

I agree with this too! I always agree with you! If it makes us happy and creates a better world where's the harm? I have a RIDICULOUS belief that smiling at people just makes other people feel good! :) I do this allllll the time! Not a huge crazy smile -- just eye contact and an acknowledgment sort of thing. I smile at EVERYONE! Hi! I'm a dork -- I'm smiling at you! Do I know this actually correlates to other people liking it? No! Does it hurt anyone? NO! Does it hurt me? NO! Some guys may think I like them? Some may think "what in the hell is wrong with her???" :)

Does it make me feel good? Yes. I'm so simple. :)

I do charitable acts and think, "weeee that made someone happy!" -- Do I KNOW this? No! Does that matter? NO! There's a man that walks on the interstate near my house, he's homeless and every so often I leave him a bag of goodies in his pathway. I have NO EARTHLY idea if he likes it, appreciates it, etc... -- I THINK HE DOES!! I BELIEVE HE DOES!! So I do it -- I BELIEVE it makes him happy -- and that makes ME happy!! :D

[_Moniker]

As for me, I've always wondered about the old saying, "There are no atheists in a foxhole". I really wonder if I will pray to God when my own death is impending.

That sort of correlates to the notion that this belief in God is a psychological crutch -- it is! I had a health scare a year ago. Happy atheist/deist/agnostic (all over the place) most of my life and no NEED for God. Yet, that really sparked a psychological need, for me, to have some sort of comfort. I actually did seek it -- didn't happen -- but I sought it nonetheless.

Does anyone here have wartime experience that can speak to this? Is that a true statement? I have never been in anything close to a war or a dangerous situation where I've genuinely feared for my life. I've heard that when you are faced with death, many basic instincts override our "civilized" persona in the interest of self preservation. Is the belief in a God one of those basic instincts?

You know what? That's a good question. I do think this God belief is hardwired into us and it most likely is an instinct. Yet, it would seem for survival that we would do away with relying on a big guy in the sky to help us out of dire situations. Why is there apparently a human condition to believe in God? It would appear, to me, that this actually would hurt our ability to survive. Good question! I don't know!

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Monicker, i'll respond in bold.

There are some that do derive great comfort from their belief in a "plan", an "afterlife" and "meaning" from their belief in a God. I recognize this and have long recognized this. With this understanding I've been hesitant to discuss religious beliefs with those that hold them. Other reasons have also made me hesitant to discuss religion -- cultural norms, tradition, and the like. I'm rethinking this position as I'm not too fond of traditions for mere tradition sake. RM: Good thinking.

I understand that we tell our children that the Easter Bunny is not real at some point. We also, most of us, don't allow our children to believe in fantasy for mere fantasies sake as they grow to adulthood. Yet, when we are dealing with adults, that are not our responsibility, is it appropriate to strip them from their grandeur of beliefs in some fantasy? RM: Do children need parents to lead them from their phantasis? Their peers usually do that. Such being the case, why not adult peers doing the same? Many reasons, i suppose...

I don't want this to delve off into control of the masses (how those that rule compel those under them with religious control), or how it may cause harm to society. I want to keep this discussion strictly upon the human comfort some derive from these said beliefs.

Is it appropriate to strip this from them? Why or why not? RM: Depends on personalities and dispositions of both parties. Will it strengthen them or weaken them? LOTS of discretion required. Did 'they' bring the subject up? A friend said something to the effect, "...i don't know how anyone could survive thinking XYZ..." My response, "...would you like me to tell you?)

How would you go about stripping these beliefs from them? RM: "Stripping" sound invasive/intrusive? Not my style :-) If you could? Is there ever a time you would be hesitant to do so? RM: At all times. At a funeral? At a deathbed? Why or why not? RM: I can't imagine more inappropriate times for ME to broach the subject. OTOH, IF they/theirs opened the subject and invited MY input... These crisis times might infact lead folks to introspection thinking as never before. Their call...

If you're a theist what emotional (psychological) needs are met by belief in a deity, afterlife, etc...?

As an ex-traditional-theist, very little in reality. Just seemed what folks did and said when someone "past away". (A really hockie term for "dying")
Death is handled as the Person 'left' is conditioned/indoctrinated/educated to respond. Certainly there is evidence of grief on most occasions. So we could say, "that's normal."

But, as to what follows next is simply mythology and wishful/fearful thinking, IMSCO. Personally, the older (wiser :-) i become, the less belief i have in an afer-life as imagined by traditionalists who follow the Egyptian/Christian promalgations... Warm regards, Roger

[_Ren]

You know what? That's a good question. I do think this God belief is hardwired into us and it most likely is an instinct. Yet, it would seem for survival that we would do away with relying on a big guy in the sky to help us out of dire situations. Why is there apparently a human condition to believe in God? It would appear, to me, that this actually would hurt our ability to survive. Good question! I don't know!

Yeah - I think too literal a belief in God - that caused somebody to actually stop acting in a 'normal' way and just relied on faith - would certainly be detrimental to survival chances! (Which is why next to no religious people I know actually do this in practice).

But I think there is a kind of belief that doesn't affect eventual action. (You just thank God for all the good things that happen, and refer to God's wrath for the bad things and / or blame it on the BAD God etc.). It might be that that kind of religious belief (that I think is the one people mainly have...) could actually help us keep doing the things necessary to survive!

...how's that? Well - arguably we are 'self-aware', where other creatures aren't, or at least not in the same way we are. (That's certainly debatable, but using that assumption for now...)
Other creatures don't have to decide 'Whats the point in surviving and reproducing?'. They don't care - they just do it.
But a human might decide 'Whats the point?'. So - a 'point' is required. And hence - religion.

So I think that religion might be a natural reaction to increased mental capacity - to the point of self-awareness. Perhaps. Maybe. Or not. Whatever...! :)