Belief In God -- Satisfy A Need?

[_GoodK]

I think we create the need for meaning by creating contrast. In other words, in our upbringing, we are told (at least in Mormonism) that "this life on Earth is but a spec in our total eternal existence..." So we would be foolish not to do all in our power to behave the way we should to make the rest of our existence better.

I've also heard "I don't know if I could live without the gospel...," implying that without the "plan" it lays out, how and why should we even continue this life?

Right, I've heard that too. On and off-line. I just don't know if I'm willing to challenge their notions. If someone finds comfort (in whatever it is and it doesn't hurt others) is it appropriate to try to rid this from them? Or maybe appropriate isn't the right word. Is it necessary? Is it cruel? Is it just forcing them to "grow up" -- as I've seen it stated by other atheists?

I had to play with this after I had a very quick transition out (at least intellectually and spiritually) of the LDS church in the mid 90s, and it took a while to work this out. Funny thing, after my metamorphasis, I really do about the same things I did back then, but with very different interpretations of why. I have the same kind of excitement when I watch the Utah Jazz or the Utes win games. I feel very bonded and close to my kids when I spend good times with them. I really empathize with the pain and fear my kids experience (I watched my oldest daughter have surgery last week, and she really struggled, and I thought I was going to need the meds after!).

I hope your daughter is okay now! And you too. :)

You're absolutely correct -- we all find comfort in different things. Yet, does that comfort have to come from something not supernatural? If it is supernatural and it brings comfort must it be stripped from them? I'm thinking of arguments I've heard that this belief is merely an emotional (or psychological) crutch -- yet, why in and of itself is this a bad thing?

Point is, I realized we all have the same desires and emotions, even if we call them something else. Today I "do things" because I enjoy them...and I actually find that I enjoy the same things without a real belief in any dogma at all!

Well, I've never made the transition from dogma to without, so I can't relate. Yet, I have plenty of beliefs that don't rely on reason. I do find comfort in them and sort of like them. I mean, I don't believe in leprechauns, ghosts, or oogie boogie men, yet, I just sort of believe things for no other reason than I like to! If I want to believe something because it makes it easier for me to cope then I do it -- well, at least I try to. :)

Unfortunately I think it is our duty to help adults come to terms with the reality of this existence. I think while it may be a comforting idea to believe in God and the afterlife, it is more of drain on our resources. We need to simply treat a belief in God like a belief in the well-being of Tupac Shakur, silly and not worthy of serious attention.

[_BishopRic]

Unfortunately I think it is our duty to help adults come to terms with the reality of this existence. I think while it may be a comforting idea to believe in God and the afterlife, it is more of drain on our resources. We need to simply treat a belief in God like a belief in the well-being of Tupac Shakur, silly and not worthy of serious attention.

I agree with this, but the question is how do we best teach it -- with the human stubbornness/rebelliousness factor? As adults, it seems we are generally quite unteachable. If somebody comes to me and invades my very comfortable world with a story like "you are going to hell if you don't change your life...," I'll close off to them as fast as I can!

It's a trite statement, but I think that the best way to teach a person is to set the example. In other words, if I'm in a lifestyle that is "dissonant," and I see others with peace and contentment, I will want to know why they are that way...what is different in them? If I am the one to search for answers, I am more likely to "buy" their product.

So I feel like if I just live my peaceful, happy life (and it is, without acting like I did when TBM), others will someday realize it is possible without religion. And the cycle is broken.

[Guest]

You know what? That's a good question. I do think this God belief is hardwired into us and it most likely is an instinct. Yet, it would seem for survival that we would do away with relying on a big guy in the sky to help us out of dire situations. Why is there apparently a human condition to believe in God? It would appear, to me, that this actually would hurt our ability to survive. Good question! I don't know!

Yeah - I think too literal a belief in God - that caused somebody to actually stop acting in a 'normal' way and just relied on faith - would certainly be detrimental to survival chances! (Which is why next to no religious people I know actually do this in practice).

But I think there is a kind of belief that doesn't affect eventual action. (You just thank God for all the good things that happen, and refer to God's wrath for the bad things and / or blame it on the BAD God etc.). It might be that that kind of religious belief (that I think is the one people mainly have...) could actually help us keep doing the things necessary to survive!

...how's that? Well - arguably we are 'self-aware', where other creatures aren't, or at least not in the same way we are. (That's certainly debatable, but using that assumption for now...)
Other creatures don't have to decide 'Whats the point in surviving and reproducing?'. They don't care - they just do it.
But a human might decide 'Whats the point?'. So - a 'point' is required. And hence - religion.

So I think that religion might be a natural reaction to increased mental capacity - to the point of self-awareness. Perhaps. Maybe. Or not. Whatever...! :)

Hmm... that's interesting. I did read about the evolution of cognition a while back. MUST there have been something within this "God belief" that did help the survival? No? Is it there for a REASON -- yet, why? I know that we're hardwired -- yet, is it just a byproduct of evolution -- or was it necessary to advance? I need to find a book! Or is it that this belief brought people together somehow? Did it correlate with living with others -- religion formed and this helped create cohesion, social bonds, society -- I'm rambling. I don't know. I wonder if anyone knows? Probably not. I know I've read a bit (snippets here and there) yet there doesn't seem to fit that this was not just a by-product of evolution -- a neurological leftover from our primitive minds. Hmm... I like my primitive mind! :)

[_Moniker]

Hi Monicker, I'll respond in bold.

There are some that do derive great comfort from their belief in a "plan", an "afterlife" and "meaning" from their belief in a God. I recognize this and have long recognized this. With this understanding I've been hesitant to discuss religious beliefs with those that hold them. Other reasons have also made me hesitant to discuss religion -- cultural norms, tradition, and the like. I'm rethinking this position as I'm not too fond of traditions for mere tradition sake. RM: Good thinking.

I understand that we tell our children that the Easter Bunny is not real at some point. We also, most of us, don't allow our children to believe in fantasy for mere fantasies sake as they grow to adulthood. Yet, when we are dealing with adults, that are not our responsibility, is it appropriate to strip them from their grandeur of beliefs in some fantasy? RM: Do children need parents to lead them from their phantasis? Their peers usually do that. Such being the case, why not adult peers doing the same? Many reasons, I suppose...

I don't want this to delve off into control of the masses (how those that rule compel those under them with religious control), or how it may cause harm to society. I want to keep this discussion strictly upon the human comfort some derive from these said beliefs.

Is it appropriate to strip this from them? Why or why not? RM: Depends on personalities and dispositions of both parties. Will it strengthen them or weaken them? LOTS of discretion required. Did 'they' bring the subject up? A friend said something to the effect, "...I don't know how anyone could survive thinking XYZ..." My response, "...would you like me to tell you?)

How would you go about stripping these beliefs from them? RM: "Stripping" sound invasive/intrusive? Not my style :-) If you could? Is there ever a time you would be hesitant to do so? RM: At all times. At a funeral? At a deathbed? Why or why not? RM: I can't imagine more inappropriate times for ME to broach the subject. OTOH, IF they/theirs opened the subject and invited MY input... These crisis times might infact lead folks to introspection thinking as never before. Their call...

If you're a theist what emotional (psychological) needs are met by belief in a deity, afterlife, etc...?

As an ex-traditional-theist, very little in reality. Just seemed what folks did and said when someone "past away". (A really hockie term for "dying")
Death is handled as the Person 'left' is conditioned/indoctrinated/educated to respond. Certainly there is evidence of grief on most occasions. So we could say, "that's normal."

But, as to what follows next is simply mythology and wishful/fearful thinking, IMSCO. Personally, the older (wiser :-) I become, the less belief I have in an afer-life as imagined by traditionalists who follow the Egyptian/Christian promalgations... Warm regards, Roger

Oh shoot! I always ask the wrong questions. I hadn't even considered that the peers of children strip their beliefs -- I knew this -- yet, didn't think upon that. You're so correct about that. So why is it that we as adult peers don't go about saying, "psst, you know <insert whatever> is just something your parents made up"?

Invasive stripping isn't my style either. I'm so hesitant discussing religion that I would imagine I could never do such a thing. I am often read straight from the Bible and people quote scripture to me as if I knew what they were talking about -- I just smile and nod my head. :)

That's interesting that you say you didn't really derive any psychological benefits to the beliefs. I wonder if people truly do -- I SAY they do, because they say they do. I wish more current theists would respond. I imagine the life after death is quite important for the majority. I also know I've seen on this site where a woman said this belief in a God gave her the knowledge that she was loved and embraced in some manner.

[_Moniker]

Unfortunately I think it is our duty to help adults come to terms with the reality of this existence. I think while it may be a comforting idea to believe in God and the afterlife, it is more of drain on our resources. We need to simply treat a belief in God like a belief in the well-being of Tupac Shakur, silly and not worthy of serious attention.

How would you go about doing this? Would you personally do this?

I agree with this, but the question is how do we best teach it -- with the human stubbornness/rebelliousness factor? As adults, it seems we are generally quite unteachable. If somebody comes to me and invades my very comfortable world with a story like "you are going to hell if you don't change your life...," I'll close off to them as fast as I can!

It's a trite statement, but I think that the best way to teach a person is to set the example. In other words, if I'm in a lifestyle that is "dissonant," and I see others with peace and contentment, I will want to know why they are that way...what is different in them? If I am the one to search for answers, I am more likely to "buy" their product.

So I feel like if I just live my peaceful, happy life (and it is, without acting like I did when TBM), others will someday realize it is possible without religion. And the cycle is broken.

I think if some do desire to remove these beliefs from individuals (our wider culture) that it must be done with care. This is why I'm not a fan of a few of the more rabid popular atheists of our time. I don't think they're convincing beyond those that are already in agreement with them, really. I could be wrong. Yet, when one ridicules sacred beliefs there are knee-jerks.

I agree about setting an example. When I post on MAD I sometimes post in those threads that ask about being "good" or if atheists (I'm agnostic -- don't mind being lumped with atheists) actually care about long term consequences, etc... I merely reply in the ways I live my life. What goals I have. That I'm charitable, loving, and strive to live a joyful life without hurting others. I do this in my day to day, as well. Of course I rarely tell anyone my religious beliefs in this community 'cause I learned early on that my children and I will be shunned. I've even been asked on job interviews what Church I attended! Egad. Anyway, it's complicated.

[_GoodK]

Unfortunately I think it is our duty to help adults come to terms with the reality of this existence. I think while it may be a comforting idea to believe in God and the afterlife, it is more of drain on our resources. We need to simply treat a belief in God like a belief in the well-being of Tupac Shakur, silly and not worthy of serious attention.

How would you go about doing this? Would you personally do this?

Yes I would do this on a personal level. The way I go about it is to try and visibly react the same way to talk of religion as I would if someone was discussing a belief in something similarly far fetched - like Tupac. I smile, and politely tell them they are sadly mistaken and I don't agree with their logic.

[_Moniker]

Unfortunately I think it is our duty to help adults come to terms with the reality of this existence. I think while it may be a comforting idea to believe in God and the afterlife, it is more of drain on our resources. We need to simply treat a belief in God like a belief in the well-being of Tupac Shakur, silly and not worthy of serious attention.

How would you go about doing this? Would you personally do this?

Yes I would do this on a personal level. The way I go about it is to try and visibly react the same way to talk of religion as I would if someone was discussing a belief in something similarly far fetched - like Tupac. I smile, and politely tell them they are sadly mistaken and I don't agree with their logic.

How does that go over? That sounds like a reasonable way to approach it.

I live in the heart of the Bible Belt -- I can walk to 6 Churches in less than 5 minutes from my house. :) Religious belief comes up OFTEN here. It's uncomfortable for me. I had a lady pull her Bible out of her purse (lil sticky notes sticking out of it here and there) and start reading to me one afternoon when we were having pleasant conversation. I am asked ALL THE TIME if Christ is my savior or if I've been saved. Or people just tell me what they learned in Sunday School then peer at me askew waiting for me to blow my cover (some know -- many suspect I'm a heathen -- I used to be more open about it). Perhaps it's the different cultures? I imagine that those in your area might be a bit more receptive to a conversation. Or, perhaps, I really am just a wimp??

[_BishopRic]

Unfortunately I think it is our duty to help adults come to terms with the reality of this existence. I think while it may be a comforting idea to believe in God and the afterlife, it is more of drain on our resources. We need to simply treat a belief in God like a belief in the well-being of Tupac Shakur, silly and not worthy of serious attention.

How would you go about doing this? Would you personally do this?

Yes I would do this on a personal level. The way I go about it is to try and visibly react the same way to talk of religion as I would if someone was discussing a belief in something similarly far fetched - like Tupac. I smile, and politely tell them they are sadly mistaken and I don't agree with their logic.

How does that go over? That sounds like a reasonable way to approach it.

I live in the heart of the Bible Belt -- I can walk to 6 Churches in less than 5 minutes from my house. :) Religious belief comes up OFTEN here. It's uncomfortable for me. I had a lady pull her Bible out of her purse (lil sticky notes sticking out of it here and there) and start reading to me one afternoon when we were having pleasant conversation. I am asked ALL THE TIME if Christ is my savior or if I've been saved. Or people just tell me what they learned in Sunday School then peer at me askew waiting for me to blow my cover (some know -- many suspect I'm a heathen -- I used to be more open about it). Perhaps it's the different cultures? I imagine that those in your area might be a bit more receptive to a conversation. Or, perhaps, I really am just a wimp??

I hear stories like this and I realize Mormons are much more normal than I thought! Sure, you'll have a few zealots out there, but I can pretty much live life normally here in Sugarhouse without much intrusion. Even the Mormon waiters and waitresses know how to open a bottle of wine -- just don't ask them which one is the best!

[_GoodK]

Unfortunately I think it is our duty to help adults come to terms with the reality of this existence. I think while it may be a comforting idea to believe in God and the afterlife, it is more of drain on our resources. We need to simply treat a belief in God like a belief in the well-being of Tupac Shakur, silly and not worthy of serious attention.

How would you go about doing this? Would you personally do this?

Yes I would do this on a personal level. The way I go about it is to try and visibly react the same way to talk of religion as I would if someone was discussing a belief in something similarly far fetched - like Tupac. I smile, and politely tell them they are sadly mistaken and I don't agree with their logic.

How does that go over? That sounds like a reasonable way to approach it.

I live in the heart of the Bible Belt -- I can walk to 6 Churches in less than 5 minutes from my house. :) Religious belief comes up OFTEN here. It's uncomfortable for me. I had a lady pull her Bible out of her purse (lil sticky notes sticking out of it here and there) and start reading to me one afternoon when we were having pleasant conversation. I am asked ALL THE TIME if Christ is my savior or if I've been saved. Or people just tell me what they learned in Sunday School then peer at me askew waiting for me to blow my cover (some know -- many suspect I'm a heathen -- I used to be more open about it). Perhaps it's the different cultures? I imagine that those in your area might be a bit more receptive to a conversation. Or, perhaps, I really am just a wimp??

It goes over well, I haven't been yelled at or told I was going to hell (at least to my face) but around the office I feel like I wear a bright red A on my forehead.

[_Moniker]

It goes over well, I haven't been yelled at or told I was going to hell (at least to my face) but around the office I feel like I wear a bright red A on my forehead.

Oh, it comes about at work? For me too. It's quite uncomfortable.

A few years back I was really good friends with this lady (one of my first and best friends I made here as she had a fabulous personality, our kids played, and we just hung out often) and one afternoon, as she's leaving my home, she leans over close and whispers, "I know you're a good person, even though you've been divorced -- I don't care what my pastor says."

Gee, thanks....