All religions are dangerous?

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Kevin atheism is not the opposite of theism. Atheism is a default position to theism.

Why are you quibbling over an irrelevancy like this? JAK went out of his way to describe theists as negatively as possible. By logical inference, he was speaking favorably of atheism which represents the only other group left on the planet (you either believe a God exists or you don't). You can call yourselves peanutchuckles for all I care, you still get the point.
While a theist believes in a God's existence, an atheist does not disbelieve

Then your argument isn't with me, its with the dictionary. Good luck with that.

Atheism:
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

While it may be your "belief" that atheism really doesn't mean that, do you expect me to ignore the dictionary which was written by professional English professors and grammarians? The irony is killing me here, but I'm not going to say you're a danger to society because you have faith in your personal concept of the term.
For this reason the positions are not opposite to one another as you have assumed in your argument.

Because I am following the dictionary version of what English words really mean, the two positions are opposite one another.
It's very time consuming Kevin discussing with you because you misrepresent and/or misunderstand what is actually said. JAK is fully aware of and has acknowledged that religious doctrines change to accomodate science

He has? When and where? I've provided you with specific citations from JAK, can you do the same? Certainly he has not said this in response to anything I said. And if he has said something similar to this in one of his rainbow bright posts to Moniker, how do you account for this contradiction in what he said on other occasions? He initially made it perfectly clear that religions substitute reason and facts for unreliable faith claims. They "seek" to do these things. That's what makes them dangerous. He has said this on numerous occassions in various formats.
Could Jesus ever be non divine and Christianity still exist?

Has science proved Jesus wasn't divine?
Do you think that Mormonism could ever change its claim that the Book of Mormon is an historically true text and still exist?

Absolutely. That is what happened with the RLDS Church, so why not?
There is a huge difference Kevin between a non worship worthy, non interfering deity/ ultimate knowledge and an interfering deity with humanlike qualities as presented by various religions.

Mormonism is unique in its view that God is a man.
Science does address indirectly the latter but not the former. For example, science does address the God of Mormonism indirectly by the evidence indicating with extreme high probability the Book of Mormon is nothing more than a 20th century work of fiction and hence that God not supported by evidence in fact evidence counters that God.

Yes, and apologists are trying to work their views in with science, not trying to make science conform with the religion. Have you read anything from James E. Faulconer? He is an LDS scholar who recently wrote a paper arguing that maybe God really isn't permanently anthropomorphic as Mormons often think: http://www.smpt.org/member_resource/ele ... nt1-1.html
Kevin as long as you question, are not gullible, not easily manipulated without questioning by religious authority or any authority for that matter, do not let religious authority dictate and supercede good critical thinking then that danger that JAK is referring to is not presented, at least by you.

But JAK didn't offer all of that baggage qualifying his original statements, so why are you? Is this something he told you in a PM? What JAK told this forum is unambiguous: all religions are dangerous. That's "all." That includes mine too.
What you just said above, I don't disagree with. I believe religions are just like any other social group that involves peer pressure to do and believe things.
That you support religious groups which may yield powerful influences politically

This is what I don't get. Groups of all social stripes can consolidate their numbers and influence politics. In a democracy, naturally the higher numbers the better for the group. Most people in America are theists. A good portion of them are Evangelicals. So how can religion be faulted in a democracy for influencing politics when that is their right?

This is why I think people complaining about this stuff are far more dangerous. What would you have religionists do, forfeit their right to vote just so people like JAK don't consider them dangerous? Are their votes dangerous? If you think that then your issue is political, not religious.

I would still like JAK to answer the question you chose to answer for him. You claimed I misrepresented his position, but I know I haven't, at least as he has presented it on this forum. For JAK, all religion is dangerous. This is what he said. He didn't qualify it. You can't go around making claims like this and then forfeit your obligation to explain yourself and provide examples. So he needs to provide me a hypothetical scenario where JAK and I would be in the same exact situation, and I would make a dangerous decision due to my religious belief, whereas he would make a safe decision.
Kevin you are again misunderstanding JAK's position, he is not claiming every theist is dangerous.

He said all religions are dangerous marg. I don't know why you're trying to save him from himself. This is what he said, and he should be held accountable. Let him back it up or denounce it. There is nothing unreasonable in this request.
It is the principals in thinking encouraged by religions which are dangerous. Indirectly all religious groups can be dangerous by their political power.

If that is truly what he believes, then his argument is weaker than I thought, since the same can be said of virtually any social group, many of which are dangerous (i.e. white supremacists, Gameboy fan club, etc). This makes his gripe against religion seem extremely petty since the danger would only be there in certain situationa and under specific circumstances. JAK didn't say all of that. Instead, he stated very bluntly that all religions were dangerous, period.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

dartagnan wrote:Please show me a hypothetical example where I as a theist, would be less likely to act safely in decision making, than say an atheist. You see, it is difficult to take you guys seriously if you cannot even think of a possible scenario where my belief would cause me to make dangerous decisions.

I'm still waiting.

But you guys can't even think of one.

So what does that say about the plausibility of your theory? It is bogus.

The only example thus far was given by a 19th century philospher, and even that example wasn't religion related.

So until you can come up with something that makes sense, some scenario where you think I would make an irrational decision whereas you wouldn't, then you're just pissing in the wind with your own assertions.


Maybe I'm missing something, but such a scenario seems easy to dream up.
How about if you have a vision or prophecy that tells you to kill your uncle Jim. As a theist, you would probably consider this a commandment from God. As an atheist, you would probably consider this a sign of mental disorder and head to the local E.R.
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

marg

Kevin you are again misunderstanding JAK's position, he is not claiming every theist is dangerous.


dart
He said all religions are dangerous marg. I don't know why you're trying to save him from himself. This is what he said, and he should be held accountable. Let him back it up or denounce it. There is nothing unreasonable in this request.


Do you not see the flaw in your representation of what JAK stated and that which marg identified above, dart? JAK's statement (that you quoted in your OP) pertains to "all religions" not "all theists" as marg describes above. While you continue to offer challenge based on the hypothetical "Joe Blow" or more recently yourself, the more applicable challenge in terms of JAK's statement that "all religions are dangerous" would be "What does Joe Blow's religion teach him to do?

Tell me that you see that, dart.
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Jersey Girl wrote:marg

Kevin you are again misunderstanding JAK's position, he is not claiming every theist is dangerous.


dart
He said all religions are dangerous marg. I don't know why you're trying to save him from himself. This is what he said, and he should be held accountable. Let him back it up or denounce it. There is nothing unreasonable in this request.


Do you not see the flaw in your representation of what JAK stated and that which marg identified above, dart? JAK's statement (that you quoted in your OP) pertains to "all religions" not "all theists" as marg describes above. While you continue to offer challenge based on the hypothetical "Joe Blow" or more recently yourself, the more applicable challenge in terms of JAK's statement that "all religions are dangerous" would be "What does Joe Blow's religion teach him to do?

Tell me that you see that, dart.


Haven't been following closely. So, I likely should not reply. Yet, JAK stated this:

All religions are dangerous. They seek to destroy the intellect replacing it with dogma not derived from reason and evidence.


He says religions are dangerous because they do such and such a thing -- to what? To the religion? NO -- to an individual. It strips from an INDIVIDUAL the intellect and replaces it with dogma. So, yes, it would boil down to an individual theist in the simplest sense. Religion isn't dangerous without the theists that it is stripping intellect from. Right???
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Thanks for finally offering a hypothetical GoodK.
Maybe I'm missing something, but such a scenario seems easy to dream up. How about if you have a vision or prophecy that tells you to kill your uncle Jim. As a theist, you would probably consider this a commandment from God. As an atheist, you would probably consider this a sign of mental disorder and head to the local E.R.

Would I kill my Uncle in such a situation? No. I have never received any visions like that and I would probably have my head examined too. Further, my religious belief precludes me from believing God would have me kill someone out of the blue like that. And the funny thing is, I would be engaging in reasoning based on facts of what I know instead of a "blind faith" in the "unreliable."

But if an atheist were in the same situation, the irony is that he or she wouldn't remain atheist for very long. Supernatural events like these tend to constitute as evidence for the supernatural.
Do you not see the flaw in your representation of what JAK stated and that which marg identified above, dart?

No.
JAK's statement (that you quoted in your OP) pertains to "all religions" not "all theists" as marg describes above.

JAK's argument is against those who believe in "unreliable" or "unjustified" beliefs, and that includes the belief in God, which encompasses all theists. There might be some cross fertilization going on here because JAK abandoned the discussion and EAllusion took over, and now marg is offering her own qualifying terminology, but I don't see how I could have been misrepresenting JAK based on what he actually said.
While you continue to offer challenge based on the hypothetical "Joe Blow" or more recently, yourself, the more applicable challenge in terms of JAK's statement that "all religions are dangerous" would be "What does Joe Blow's religion teach him to do?

No, the fact that Joe Blow has religion makes him dangerous. That is what JAK said. I challenged him on this and he has never denied it, so I find it odd that you and marg are trying to deny it for him.
Tell me that you see that, dart.

I see a distinction without a difference. Without the people a religion is nothing. This is like saying "the Republican party is dangerous," but when pressed to produce an example of dangerous republicans, you respond, "I didn't say republicans are dangerous, just the Republican party!"

All this shows is an attempt to backpeddle one's way out of one's own irresponsible comments.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Moniker wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:marg

Kevin you are again misunderstanding JAK's position, he is not claiming every theist is dangerous.


dart
He said all religions are dangerous marg. I don't know why you're trying to save him from himself. This is what he said, and he should be held accountable. Let him back it up or denounce it. There is nothing unreasonable in this request.


Do you not see the flaw in your representation of what JAK stated and that which marg identified above, dart? JAK's statement (that you quoted in your OP) pertains to "all religions" not "all theists" as marg describes above. While you continue to offer challenge based on the hypothetical "Joe Blow" or more recently yourself, the more applicable challenge in terms of JAK's statement that "all religions are dangerous" would be "What does Joe Blow's religion teach him to do?

Tell me that you see that, dart.


Haven't been following closely. So, I likely should not reply. Yet, JAK stated this:

All religions are dangerous. They seek to destroy the intellect replacing it with dogma not derived from reason and evidence.


He says religions are dangerous because they do such and such a thing -- to what? To the religion? NO -- to an individual. It strips from an INDIVIDUAL the intellect and replaces it with dogma. So, yes, it would boil down to an individual theist in the simplest sense. Religion isn't dangerous without the theists that it is stripping intellect from. Right???


Moniker,

I've been following this thread since it started and have read every single post here. While the majority of posts are quite lengthy, I don't recall a single instance where JAK claimed that all theists lack critical thinking or evaluation skills. Do you?

The quote that dart used for the basis of this thread is a statement on the nature/influence of religion and it's dogma, not a wholesale write off of the intellect of theists. dart's attempt to individualize/personalize the statement is where it goes wrong.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Well let's just cut to the chase. Why not ask him?

"I don't recall a single instance where JAK claimed that all theists lack critical thinking or evaluation skills."

Is this true JAK?

Do you really not believe that believers in God are dangerous?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Jersey Girl
JAK's statement (that you quoted in your OP) pertains to "all religions" not "all theists" as marg describes above.


dart
JAK's argument is against those who believe in "unreliable" or "unjustified" beliefs, and that includes the belief in God, which encompasses all theists. There might be some cross fertilization going on here because JAK abandoned the discussion and EAllusion took over, and now marg is offering her own qualifying terminology, but I don't see how I could have been misrepresenting JAK based on what he actually said.


Jersey Girl: No, dart. JAK's argument is against the influence of religious dogma on the human intellect. Nowhere on this thread or any other thread will you see JAK make the claim that this applies to the human intellect of "all theists". He is arguing with respect to "all religion" not "all theists". At what point did JAK abandon the discussion? He's posted on this thread since it began.

Jersey Girl
While you continue to offer challenge based on the hypothetical "Joe Blow" or more recently, yourself, the more applicable challenge in terms of JAK's statement that "all religions are dangerous" would be "What does Joe Blow's religion teach him to do?


dart
No, the fact that Joe Blow has religion makes him dangerous. That is what JAK said. I challenged him on this and he has never denied it, so I find it odd that you and marg are trying to deny it for him.


Jersey Girl: Where did JAK say that, dart? Can you quote him?

dart
I see a distinction without a difference. Without the people a religion is nothing. This is like saying "the Republican party is dangerous," but when pressed to produce an example of dangerous republicans, you respond, "I didn't say republicans are dangerous, just the Republican party!"


Jersey Girl: Yes, it is like saying that and that's exactly what JAK is saying regarding religion. He is saying that religious dogma is dangerous, not all religionists.


All this shows is an attempt to backpeddle one's way out of one's own irresponsible comments.[/quote]
Last edited by Google Feedfetcher on Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Moniker wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:marg

Kevin you are again misunderstanding JAK's position, he is not claiming every theist is dangerous.


dart
He said all religions are dangerous marg. I don't know why you're trying to save him from himself. This is what he said, and he should be held accountable. Let him back it up or denounce it. There is nothing unreasonable in this request.


Do you not see the flaw in your representation of what JAK stated and that which marg identified above, dart? JAK's statement (that you quoted in your OP) pertains to "all religions" not "all theists" as marg describes above. While you continue to offer challenge based on the hypothetical "Joe Blow" or more recently yourself, the more applicable challenge in terms of JAK's statement that "all religions are dangerous" would be "What does Joe Blow's religion teach him to do?

Tell me that you see that, dart.


Haven't been following closely. So, I likely should not reply. Yet, JAK stated this:

All religions are dangerous. They seek to destroy the intellect replacing it with dogma not derived from reason and evidence.


He says religions are dangerous because they do such and such a thing -- to what? To the religion? NO -- to an individual. It strips from an INDIVIDUAL the intellect and replaces it with dogma. So, yes, it would boil down to an individual theist in the simplest sense. Religion isn't dangerous without the theists that it is stripping intellect from. Right???


Moniker,

I've been following this thread since it started and have read every single post here. While the majority of posts are quite lengthy, I don't recall a single instance where JAK claimed that all theists lack critical thinking or evaluation skills. Do you?

The quote that dart used for the basis of this thread is a statement on the nature/influence of religion and it's dogma, not a wholesale write off of the intellect of theists. dart's attempt to individualize/personalize the statement is where it goes wrong.


I've read every page but the current one -- just caught the tail end. I only looked to his original statement. Whose intellect is being stripped? It comes down to his statement that religions "seek to destroy the intellect" -- whose? The individual.

I have not stated that JAK said, "all theists lack critical or evaluation skills". I replied that JAK made a statement -- that religion seeks to destroy intellect.

I think individualizing the statement is appropriate. Religion is not some glob of goo -- it is made of people. How do you separate what he says religion does -- from those very people that are on the receiving end of the religion?

JAK does apparently believe the Amish are dangerous because their religion requires them to ride in buggies -- this is a behavior that he said is dangerous. He never came back to my points. He ACTUALLY relied on ONE individual acting in a reckless manner to then say that the entire Amish community is dangerous because of it. It's in an early post -- surely you caught that?
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Let's just wait until he answers for himself.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
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