asbestosman wrote:I'll never be in favor of polygamy. A beta male like me only stands to be on the losing side as a lost boy. Besides, I'm too much of a loner to want more than one wife.
Since there were always more men than women, Mormon leaders gobbling up all the nubile young women from the wagon trains and handcart companies must have driven many young men away from the Church. Thus the Church's mission to spread the gospel to these souls was thwarted by the leaders passions. How many potential members has this kept away from the Church ever since then?
From another thread:
Polyandry was for dynastic reasons...
Needing to defend this practice still takes its toll today in stretching both reason and sometimes truth. Can this ultimately be good for the Church?
Additionally, what of the theology that came as secondary justification for polygamy? Would we have ever seen the speculative theosis theories if not for polygamy or the Adam-God stuff either?
This is just my personal opinion and speculation - I believe the entire reason for Joseph Smith' changing theology regarding God having a body, along with a wife and "children", as well as the idea of eternal marriage, were all the result of his desire to find a way to theologically defend polygamy. In other words, if Joseph Smith had never desired to "restore" polygamy, I doubt he would have "restored" some of these other doctrines, either. So I believe polygamy is very much at the root of many LDS teachings.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
I highly doubt Joseph Smith ever really thought much about the long term viability of his religion. I'm willing to bet nobody would be more surprised by the church's longevity than him. It appears as though he did whatever he needed to do to satisfy his "needs" at the time.
The fact that his actions have had a rippling effect over the last couple centuries likely never even entered his mind while he was mounting his teenage wives.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
I highly doubt Joseph Smith ever really thought much about the long term viability of his religion. I'm willing to bet nobody would be more surprised by the church's longevity than him. It appears as though he did whatever he needed to do to satisfy his "needs" at the time.
Good point.
From what I have read, it seems clear that Joseph Smith & Co, thought Christ's return was imminent. The early members seemed to believe the Joseph Smith was the King/prophet assigned to ready the world for the return of Christ. After he died, it seemed like many believed his son David would be the one.
Nevertheless, I do not get the impression that these early members believed for a second the church would continue as it has, without the return of Jesus, for nearly two hundred years.
And of course, NONE of them would recognize it! ;-)
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
Some Schmo wrote:I highly doubt Joseph Smith ever really thought much about the long term viability of his religion. I'm willing to bet nobody would be more surprised by the church's longevity than him. It appears as though he did whatever he needed to do to satisfy his "needs" at the time.
The fact that his actions have had a rippling effect over the last couple centuries likely never even entered his mind while he was mounting his teenage wives.
I don't know if I can agree with this. David Koresh mounted plenty of teenage girls in his day, too, but I don't think anyone would seriously question whether he believed his religious BS. I think he was a religious fanatic, no question about it. And that he found ways to justify and excuse what he did with girls and women. In that way, I think I agree with Dan Vogel's "pious fraud" theory, except I think "pious" is too generous a word. Joseph might well have been a "religious fanatic fraud".
But seriously, I think that David Koresh offers up an almost perfect example of an alpha male religious zealout sect leader who partakes from amongst the females of his flock, as Joseph Smith did.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Some Schmo wrote:I highly doubt Joseph Smith ever really thought much about the long term viability of his religion. I'm willing to bet nobody would be more surprised by the church's longevity than him. It appears as though he did whatever he needed to do to satisfy his "needs" at the time.
The fact that his actions have had a rippling effect over the last couple centuries likely never even entered his mind while he was mounting his teenage wives.
I don't know if I can agree with this. David Koresh mounted plenty of teenage girls in his day, too, but I don't think anyone would seriously question whether he believed his religious BS. I think he was a religious fanatic, no question about it. And that he found ways to justify and excuse what he did with girls and women. In that way, I think I agree with Dan Vogel's "pious fraud" theory, except I think "pious" is too generous a word. Joseph might well have been a "religious fanatic fraud".
But seriously, I think that David Koresh offers up an almost perfect example of an alpha male religious zealout sect leader who partakes from amongst the females of his flock, as Joseph Smith did.
I'm not so convinced he really believed it as much as observed how what he was doing was affecting others and "went with it." I personally don't believe the pious fraud theory is the case, but I do acknowledge that the idea is a plausible one.
Assuming it was the case, I still am not sure that believing in your own lies indicates that Joseph Smith cared much about what happened to his church after he died. He may have, but given what we know about his life, I personally doubt it, otherwise I believe he'd have been a bit more careful about what he did and how he appeared to others.
Of course, either way, it's all speculation.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
But seriously, I think that David Koresh offers up an almost perfect example of an alpha male religious zealout sect leader who partakes from amongst the females of his flock, as Joseph Smith did.
Godwin law violation. Sethbag banned for all eternity.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:This is just my personal opinion and speculation - I believe the entire reason for Joseph Smith' changing theology regarding God having a body, along with a wife and "children", as well as the idea of eternal marriage, were all the result of his desire to find a way to theologically defend polygamy. In other words, if Joseph Smith had never desired to "restore" polygamy, I doubt he would have "restored" some of these other doctrines, either. So I believe polygamy is very much at the root of many LDS teachings.
The idea of God having a body came much earlier then the instituting of Polygamy. So unless you argue that he was planning this and laying the ground work I do not see how that works. Plus what does God having a body have to do with polygamy.