Cooper wrote: People on this board are fond of saying that Joseph and the prophets were men, and as such can make mistakes. Why can't anyone just say - it was wrong. It was a mistake. It shouldn't have happened and move own.
Runtu wrote:Because if he was wrong in that issue, what else was he wrong about? People often say that they don't believe that the prophets are infallible, but I don't think that's the attitude many people have toward Joseph Smith. The worst I've ever heard an active church member say about him was that he wasn't very good with money. But for a lot of people it's unthinkable to imagine Joseph Smith making such a huge mistake in the name of God. That's why very few will say it was wrong and move on.
Well, I will say it: Polygamy was wrong and we should more on.
moksha wrote:It seems so much easier if we could just verbally shrug our shoulders and say, "what was up with that polygamy stuff anyway? Glad it's over".
The idea of God having a body came much earlier then the instituting of Polygamy. So unless you argue that he was planning this and laying the ground work I do not see how that works. Plus what does God having a body have to do with polygamy.
That depends on the date you accept for the beginning of the idea of polygamy.
God having a body means god has sex. Most religions disassociate god and sex, and hence, don't normally associate marriage and having children with being god. But if god has a body and his primary purpose is to reproduce with his wife (wives) in order to populate new worlds, then that opens the possibility that marital relations and reproduction will continue in the next life. God's glory is multiplied through his offspring. Human beings pattern themselves after this behavior in this life. This all opened the door for a theological justification of polygamy.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:God having a body means god has sex. Most religions disassociate god and sex, and hence, don't normally associate marriage and having children with being god. But if god has a body and his primary purpose is to reproduce with his wife (wives) in order to populate new worlds, then that opens the possibility that marital relations and reproduction will continue in the next life. God's glory is multiplied through his offspring. Human beings pattern themselves after this behavior in this life. This all opened the door for a theological justification of polygamy.
I think you are stating the foundational prerequisites necessary to help justify Joseph's actions. Both good and bad.
I think you are stating the foundational prerequisites necessary to help justify Joseph's actions. Both good and bad.
Don't get me wrong - I think that the entire thing can be shown to be illogical. The idea of a god with a physical body having sex with a goddess with a physical body, and their offspring being "spirit children" defies all reason. (to say nothing of the fact that male infant mortality rate ensures more males than females in the CK)
But I do believe that polygamy - and the need to create a theological justification for it - is deeply ingrained within LDS thought, and cannot just be shrugged off.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
moksha wrote:From the MAD thread on young Helen Mar:
Cooper wrote: People on this board are fond of saying that Joseph and the prophets were men, and as such can make mistakes. Why can't anyone just say - it was wrong. It was a mistake. It shouldn't have happened and move own.
Runtu wrote:Because if he was wrong in that issue, what else was he wrong about? People often say that they don't believe that the prophets are infallible, but I don't think that's the attitude many people have toward Joseph Smith. The worst I've ever heard an active church member say about him was that he wasn't very good with money. But for a lot of people it's unthinkable to imagine Joseph Smith making such a huge mistake in the name of God. That's why very few will say it was wrong and move on.
Well, I will say it: Polygamy was wrong and we should more on.
I agree, it was wrong, it was wicked, and there is no justification for it whatsoever. Even GBH condemned the practice on Larry King Live (September 8, 1998).
He asked Hinckely about polygamy:
KING: You condemn it [polygamy]. HINCKLEY: I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal. It is not legal. And this church takes the position that we will abide by the law. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.
sunstoned wrote: He asked Hinckely about polygamy:
KING: You condemn it [polygamy]. HINCKLEY: I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal. It is not legal. And this church takes the position that we will abide by the law. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.
emphasis added is mine.
You make a very good point. Why is this point not emphasized more vigorously in discussions?