Mormon posters grasp at straws to discredit dissenter

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Jesus argued from that passage that divorce was allowed only on the basis of adultery. So 'anyone' in the church who is divorced because of 'unreasonable behaviour' or any other reason other than 'adultery' or 'fornication' commits adultery should they marry again. Or do you interpret those passages differently? To my mind those scriptures in no way sanction divorce as a blanket rule which is what you suggest..

You can equivocate all you like but that was 'doctrine' from the master. It is not 'doctrine' that the church upholds in its proclamation on the family. I know a dozen members who have married and divorced for reasons other than fornication or adultery...I don't see the church rushing to accuse them of adultery should they decide to marry again, which was clearly Jesus' position...


I cannot speak for Catholicism or Protestantism, but, as it stands doctrinally, their is no logical inconsistency between the Church's position on divorce and that expounded in the Old Testament and New Testament. You are conveniently isolating passages and interpreting them in a surface manner convivial to your position, but not necessarily the best or only obvious interpretation.

In the fist place, the law of Moses specified a number of reasons for which a man might divorce his wife, many of them having nothing to do with sexual sin (Deut. 24:1-4) Further, you overlook that Jesus teachings regarding the much stricter standards were given to his apostles, not the Pharisees. The Lord was clear that for those who are not capable of living the higher standard, divorce is permitted (though not without limit). For those who have reached a certain level of spiritual maturity, the standard becomes much higher.

That, at least, is the LDS view of those passages, and reconciles any logical apparent logical contradiction. You are welcome to your own interpretation, of course, but from our perspective, ther is no hypocrisy involved, as the higher standard does not apply to all. Indeed, none of us can perfectly live the high standards the Gospel sets for us. This is, of course, the purpose of the Atonement, the sacrament, and the miracle of forgiveness. We are also not supposed to fight, strike, or kill one another. that's the standard, made clear by the Book of Mormon. And yet, the Gospel allows justified homicide as well as just organized warfare. Why? For the same reason as Jesus explains to the Pharisees:

He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.


This applies to all humans who have ever lived. We are all fallen, mortal, and weak. We are also subject to the wickedness of others, to which we must sometimes respond. When, however, we reach a certain level of spiritual knowledge and maturity, the bar is raised. This is true of other principles as well, not just the rules governing divorce.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Brackite
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Post by _Brackite »

Coggins7 wrote: [

Keep on rockin' Brack. I know you don't have any reading comprehension problems, so what this continual urinating in the wind represents is simply a continual pounding of your bleeding knuckles against a concrete wall. You can continue to extract, isolate, and twist these verses in Jacob until your head explodes if you wish, but you will never undue the very explicit reference to the exception to the general rule contained in that same book.

Your previous exegesis of that verse was, frankly, silly, and quite obviously strained beyond any conceivable textual limits as to a reasonable, conservative reading of the text. Nor will you lock horns with the very clear references to plural marriage in the Old Testament, including the Mosaic law's rules concerning it, and the plural wives of some of the Old Testament's most important patriarchs and prophets.

Your arguments here need some Fix-It-Flat to keep the flopping tire rolling down the bumpy road you have set for yourself.


Try as you might Coggins7, There is absolutely NO Evidence whatsoever, that the Phrase, 'raise up seed unto me,' in Jacob 2:30, refers that the Lord God will command His People to Practice Polygamy. The Lord God intends to command His People in order to raise up seed unto Him. This is really meaning raising up seed unto the Lord. It can and will be done through Monogamy. The Lord God intends to raise up seed unto Him, through Monogamy, NOT Polygamy, as can be seen when comparing Jacob 2:30 to 1 Nephi 7:1, and then correctly comparing 1 Nephi 7:1 to 1 Nephi 16:7-8. Here is again 1 Nephi 7:1 Compared to, to 1 Nephi 16:7-8:

1 Nephi 7:

[1] And now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.


1 Nephi 16:

[7] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.

[8] And thus my father had fulfilled all the commandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
Last edited by MSNbot Media on Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

Coggins7 wrote:
Jesus argued from that passage that divorce was allowed only on the basis of adultery. So 'anyone' in the church who is divorced because of 'unreasonable behaviour' or any other reason other than 'adultery' or 'fornication' commits adultery should they marry again. Or do you interpret those passages differently? To my mind those scriptures in no way sanction divorce as a blanket rule which is what you suggest..

You can equivocate all you like but that was 'doctrine' from the master. It is not 'doctrine' that the church upholds in its proclamation on the family. I know a dozen members who have married and divorced for reasons other than fornication or adultery...I don't see the church rushing to accuse them of adultery should they decide to marry again, which was clearly Jesus' position...


I cannot speak for Catholicism or Protestantism, but, as it stands doctrinally, their is no logical inconsistency between the Church's position on divorce and that expounded in the Old Testament and New Testament. You are conveniently isolating passages and interpreting them in a surface manner convivial to your position, but not necessarily the best or only obvious interpretation.

In the fist place, the law of Moses specified a number of reasons for which a man might divorce his wife, many of them having nothing to do with sexual sin (Deut. 24:1-4) Further, you overlook that Jesus teachings regarding the much stricter standards were given to his apostles, not the Pharisees. The Lord was clear that for those who are not capable of living the higher standard, divorce is permitted (though not without limit). For those who have reached a certain level of spiritual maturity, the standard becomes much higher.

That, at least, is the LDS view of those passages, and reconciles any logical apparent logical contradiction. You are welcome to your own interpretation, of course, but from our perspective, ther is no hypocrisy involved, as the higher standard does not apply to all. Indeed, none of us can perfectly live the high standards the Gospel sets for us. This is, of course, the purpose of the Atonement, the sacrament, and the miracle of forgiveness. We are also not supposed to fight, strike, or kill one another. that's the standard, made clear by the Book of Mormon. And yet, the Gospel allows justified homicide as well as just organized warfare. Why? For the same reason as Jesus explains to the Pharisees:

He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.


This applies to all humans who have ever lived. We are all fallen, mortal, and weak. We are also subject to the wickedness of others, to which we must sometimes respond. When, however, we reach a certain level of spiritual knowledge and maturity, the bar is raised. This is true of other principles as well, not just the rules governing divorce.


Coggins, I'm sorry but you can't justify the church's current stance on divorce by using the Old Testament, it was against the Old Testament and the law of Moses that Jesus spoke. The scriptures are quite clear, in fact abundantly clear...

Jesus said that divorce was only acceptable in the case of adultery or fornication. If someone put 'away' their partner for any other reason then if they married again they would be committing adultery.

It's not my private interpretation. It's quite clear.

The church takes a very liberal and non-fundamentalist stance on divorce because it understands human frailties and weakness.
Don't you see the irony as it applies to people who are unfortunate enough to have been born with homosexual leanings?
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

You are conveniently isolating passages


I had to chuckle at this Coggins...
I was raised on seminary/institute and served a full time mission.
The church is built on conveniently isolating passages that suit its own position.
That's not necessarily a criticism. Most churches do the same thing...

Such is the ambiguity and contradicting nature of much of scripture...including more recent scripture!!!
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Coggins, I'm sorry but you can't justify the church's current stance on divorce by using the Old Testament, it was against the Old Testament and the law of Moses that Jesus spoke. The scriptures are quite clear, in fact abundantly clear...


Jesus never once "spoke against" the Old Testament law of Moses. What he did say, quite clearly, is that he fulfilled it; As Jesus Christ was the Jehovah of the Old Testament, you have him here speaking against his own laws as given through Moses. How does this work? The law of Moses was completed and subsumed under the New and Everlasting covenant. I think the problem here Miss, is that you have only a limited understanding of the Bible and what it actually says.


Jesus said that divorce was only acceptable in the case of adultery or fornication.


To his Apostles, not to the Pharisees.

It's not my private interpretation. It's quite clear.


What's quite clear is that you spend a great deal of time in compartmentalized sections of the scriptures without a broader understanding of the entire series of interconnected texts of which your isolated texts are a part.

The church takes a very liberal and non-fundamentalist stance on divorce because it understands human frailties and weakness.
Don't you see the irony as it applies to people who are unfortunate enough to have been born with homosexual leanings?


The first statement now is in agreement with me, and with the text of the New Testament. The second is a problem. There is not a shred of evidence that anyone, anywhere, at any time, has ever been born with homosexual leanings, bisexual leanings, BDSM leanings, group sex leanings, or any other kind of leaning other than that which tends toward the multiplication and replenishment of the earth.

The origins of homosexual leanings are not known, and are not to be found in genetics except as a predisposing factor.

CNN is not the place to get your brain science (or anything else).
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

Coggins...bear with me...

Luke 16:18 -- ""Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery


Mark 10:11-12 -- "... Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."


1 Cor 7:10-11 -- "To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) -- and that the husband should not divorce his wife.


Matt 5: 31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.


Matt 19: 3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."


How much clearer do ya wan it Coggins!!

All best
Mary
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Try as you might Coggins7, There is absoultely NO Evidence whatsoever, that the Phrase, 'raise up seed unto me,' in Jacob 2:30, refers that the Lord God will command His People to Practice Polygamy.


Except that there is not a single General Authority who has had anything publically or authoritatively to say about it has ever not interpreted that verse in precisely that manner.

You lose Brack, yet again, but not for lack of trying.

As Gregory Smith has written at FAIR:

God never introduced the Patriarchal order of marriage with a view to please man in his carnal desires, nor to punish females for anything which they had done; but He introduced it for the express purpose of raising up to His name a royal Priesthood, a peculiar people.

- Brigham Young349

The Book of Mormon's general condemnation of polygamy is frequently mentioned by critics; its exception to this condemnation is less frequently noted: "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."350 Clearly, one theological function of polygamy could have been to "raise up" groups of people that would be faithful to God. As Doctrine and Covenants 132 explains:

Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins--from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph--which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them. This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself. Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved. But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham. God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.351

Thus, descendants from a covenant people may have been part of polygamy's purpose. This scripture also confirms our supposition that plural marriage played multiple roles, since righteous posterity is important, "among other things."

Some Church members have presumed that polygamy was thus designed to ensure a larger number of descendants than would be possible under monogamy. This need not be the case: polygamy was, as we have seen, an effective tool for "winnowing." Any family willing to make the sacrifices attendant to plural marriage were unreservedly dedicated to the restored gospel. Children raised in such an environment can have had no doubt, from an early age, of their parents' convictions. This effect can only have been magnified by the fact that most Church leaders were in polygamous unions.

Plural marriage served, therefore, to train a "peculiar" generation in devotion to their faith, while sparing them the physical persecution of Ohio, Missouri, or Illinois. The Saints were faced with the question of where their ultimate devotion lay: to Church or country? To God or man? To revelation or convention? Plural marriage cast that choice in stark terms which could not be avoided, and the early members did not shrink from the choice.


Oh, you forgot about the D&C did you? Yes, there are four standard works, not just one (Book of Mormon). We take them as a whole, not as part of a cafeteria, and hence the differences between us.

A trip to the FAIR Wiki is needed. First, the Old Testament:

Critics take an extremely limited survey of the Bible with this claim. It is true that David and Solomon were condemned for some of their marriage practices. This problem was mentioned in Deuteronomy:

15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother...17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away... (Deut. 17:15,17

Critics ignore the fact that only four chapters later, the Lord gives instructions on how to treat equitably plural wives and children. (See Deut. 21:15-17.) Why does He not simply forbid plural marriage, if that is the intent of chapter 17? Why does He instruct the Israelites on how to conduct themselves in plural households, if all such households are forbidden?

So, rather than opposing plural marriage, the command to kings is that they:

1. not multiply wives to themselves (i.e., only those who hold proper priesthood keys may approve plural marriage—see 2_Sam. 12:8, Jac. 2:30, D&C 132:38-39);
2. that these wives not be those who turn his heart away from God (1_Kings 11:3-4);
3. not take excessive numbers of wives (see Jac. 2:24).

David and Solomon are excellent examples of violating one or more of these Biblical principles, as described below.
David

David is well-known for his sin with Bathsheba and Uriah (see 2_Sam. 11:1-27. Nathan the prophet arrived to condemn David's behavior, and told the king:

7 ¶ And Nathan said to David...Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. (2_Sam. 12:7-10)

Nathan here tells David that the Lord "gave thee...thy master's wives." And, the Lord says, through His prophet, that He would have given even more than He has already given of political power, wives, and wealth.

But, David sinned and did evil in the matter of Uriah. If plural marriage is always a sin to God, then why did Nathan not take the opportunity to condemn David for it now? Or, why did the prophet not come earlier?
Solomon

Solomon's problem is described:

1 BUT king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love...
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods. (1_Kings 11:1-8

Solomon's wives turned his heart away from, as Deuteronomy cautioned. Nothing is said against the plurality of wives, but merely of wives taken without authority that turn his heart away from the Lord.
Other Biblical examples

David and Solomon do not prove the critics' point, but in fact demonstrate that plural marriage may, on occasion, be sanctioned (as in David's case certainly).

But, we need not rely on these examples only to demonstrate that plural marriage was practiced by righteous followers of God in the Bible. Other cases include:

* Abraham married Hagar (Gen. 16:3), Keturah (Gen. 25:1) and other unnamed concubines (Gen. 25:6).
* Jacob (Gen. 29:21-30, Gen. 30:3-4, Gen. 30:9)
* Abijah had fourteen wives (2_Chron. 13:21) and yet he is described as a righteous king of Judah who honored the Lord (2_Chron. 13:8-12) and prosper in battle because of the Lord's blessing (2_Chron. 13:16-18)
* Jehoiada, priest under king Joash had two wives (2_Chron. 3:{{{4}}}) and is described at his death as one who "had done good in Israel, both toward God and toward his house. [i.e. family]" ({s|2|Chronicles|24|16}}).

and also possibly:

* Moses [married Zipporah (Ex. 2:22 and an "Ethiopian" (Cushite) woman Num. 12:1 which may or may not be the same person.[1]]

The Law of Moses

As noted above, Deut. 21:15 provides rules governing Israelites who have plural wives. Further instructions are also given in Ex. 21:10. Why did God not ban plural marriage through Moses if it is always an immoral act?
Conclusion

The Bible does not forbid plural marriage. In fact, many of the most noble Biblical figures (e.g. Abraham) had more than one wife. Furthermore, Biblical laws quoted by critics forbid kings from being led astray by plural spouses, or entering relationships not sanctioned by God's authority. However, the same Biblical laws provide guidelines for legitimate plural relationships.


And this is of particular interest:

However, critics go too far when they conclude that early Christians believed in an absolute prohibition on plural marriages.

Tertullian

As I think, moreover, each pronouncement and arrangement is (the act) of one and the same God; who did then indeed, in the beginning, send forth a sowing of the race by an indulgent laxity granted to the reins of connubial alliances, until the world should be replenished, until the material of the new discipline should attain to forwardness: now, however, at the extreme boundaries of the times, has checked (the command) which He had sent out, and recalled the indulgence which He had granted; not without a reasonable ground for the extension (of that indulgence) in the beginning, and the limitation of it in the end.[2]

Tertullian's perspective is strikingly similar to Jac. 2:30, in which monogamy is the norm, but God may command exceptions to "raise up seed."

Justin Martyr

Justin Martry argued that David's sin was only in the matter of Uriah's wife, and echoed a common early Christian idea that marriage was a "mystery," or sacred rite of the type which Latter-day Saints associate with temple worship:

And this one fall of David, in the matter of Uriah's wife, proves, sirs," I said, "that the patriarchs had many wives, not to commit fornication, but that a certain dispensation and all mysteries might be accomplished by them; since, if it were allowable to take any wife, or as many wives as one chooses, and how he chooses, which the men of your nation do over all the earth, wherever they sojourn, or wherever they have been sent, taking women under the name of marriage, much more would David have been permitted to do this.[3]

Justin saw the patriarchs' marriages not as corruptions or something which God 'winked at,' but acts with significant ritual and religious power.

Augustine

Even Augustine, a towering figure in Christian theology, held that polygamy was not something that was a crime before God, but rather a matter that depended more upon cultural biases:

Again, Jacob the son of Isaac is charged with having committed a great crime because he had four wives. But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom. There are sins against nature, and sins against custom, and sins against the laws. In which, then, of these senses did Jacob sin in having a plurality of wives? As regards nature, he used the women not for sensual gratification, but for the procreation of children. For custom, this was the common practice at that time in those countries. And for the laws, no prohibition existed. The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the [secular] laws forbid it.[4]









The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

I am still scratching my head about this from the Danzigs website:

Growing Up in the Heart of Zion

I grew up just a ten minute walk from the headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. My father was a Jewish convert from New York City and my mother descended from Utah pioneers. Both of them attended BYU and served full time Missions.

When I was a boy my father was head of maintenance at the LDS Church’s Vault in Little Cottonwood Canyon. It was a job both he and I loved. I remember going to work with him occasionally on Saturdays to finish up some job or use the shop there to make an extra flashy pinewood derby car. I thought my Dad had the neatest job in the world.


The Investigation


When I was seven my father was falsely accused of stealing documents
from the vault and selling them to enemies of the Church. The
accusations were baseless, and were immediately disproved, but he was
investigated for months. He was told that the Quorum of Twelve Apostles
had ordered the investigation. He was threatened with immediate
termination and excommunication if he revealed the nature of the
charges to anyone, including his wife or bishop. Sadly, those
conducting the investigation were not so silent. Rumors quickly spread
that my father was an apostate and was going to be excommunicated.


My father eventually sought help from his bishop and also from the
General Authority in charge of his department. That General Authority
told him that he had been forbidden to speak with him. After months of
struggle my father was eventually given a hearing before President
Tanner in which he was cleared of all charges and promised there would
be no further investigation or reprisals. Sadly this was not the case.
My father was eventually forced from his employment with the Church by
the same men who had baselessly accused him. Because he did not want to
bring embarrassment to the Church he never insisted on a public apology
so there was no official record of what had happened. Finding himself
unable to resolve the matter privately he eventually gave up seeking
for a resolution.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I'm scratching my head about this too, because it sounds like a bubbling, steaming crock.

Why would he have been falsely accused?

Who are "those men"?

If he was cleared by an Apostle, there is no way the rest of the story could have transpired as it did without ecclesiastical discipline coming down hard on "those men".

What on earth does any of this have to do with homosexuality and the social issue surrounding it, which was apparently the crux of Danzig's problems with the Church?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
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The Church's Response

Post by _RAJ »

Here is the Church Response to The Danzig Story:

http://www.newsroom.LDS.org/ldsnewsroom ... -the-flock
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