The prophetic standard of living--a model for politics?

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

The problem is--much faith as I have in the invisible hand--I think the free market will always run into a few hiccups. Monopolies will occasionally happen. Another problem with free markets is the tragedy of the commons (overgrazing, pollution, etc.).


Asbestos, the "tragedy of the commons" is a problem of socialist economic relations, not free market. Its the DMV, the High School, and the Social Security office that goes without paint, landscaping, and maintinence, and has all the obscene drawings on the bathroom stalls, not your home (at least, I hope this is not the case!) The tragedy of the commons is what you have in socialized medicine and in partly socialized systems such as the American, in which people perceive the cost of medical care to be low of 'free" and consume it accordingly, trying to get as much out of it while it lasts, driving prices into the stratosphere and leaving less for others coming into the system at a later date.

I think another problem is that of insurance--companies simply won't want to ensure high-risk customers at an affordable rate. I don't think it's fair to make them ensure high cost customers, but I don't think it's fair that people are denied coverage because of it.


This is a problem, but again, the best way out is the free market, the reason being that the competitive and entrepreneurial pressures of the market will eventually bring the cost of medical care down substantially, allowing otherwise uninsurable people to find insurance in a market, profit based system in which net wealth entering and enriching the medical system can absorb catastrophic illness cases much more efficiently without destroying a hospital or insurance company.

Medical costs in Canada and the U.K. have gone into low orbit, but the populace has no idea of the economic realities because they are shielded from them.

I think health care costs have recently skyrocketed for a number of reasons. Government meddling may be part of it, but I think another problem is that liability has increased with costly lawsuits for healthcare providers, doctors, etc.


This is an excellent point, and one I have made many times in these kinds of discussions. Indeed, without substantial tort reform, free market approaches, in and of themselves, may be of only marginal effectiveness.

Another part of it may be that we are able to do more, but it costs a lot to do. In any case I don't see how the uninsurable will ever be insurable without something drastic changing. I don't see how private insurance companies are ever going to ensure high-risk patients unless it is done as with large companies and huge policies for a substantial number of employees and dependants.


It can be done, if the medical profession and various medical industries and providers are free to grow, prosper, and innovate without the heavy handed regulation that has made much of doctoring and nursing the filling out of government forms. The compliance costs, Asbestos, of government meddling with the every facet of the medical profession, are astounding. Let hospitals and clinics take that money and put it into company or corporate slush funds to assist indigent or other patients that may need financial help. its in the many billions of dollars, so there's no lack of funds if the waste and fraud are taken out of the equation.

By the way, I'm not totally against government help of private individuals, but I would stipulate that this occur at no level higher than the state level (and even this is giving a lot of libertarian ground. The states don't have a great deal of credibility either, but at least there that much closer to the populace they serve). In no manner should the federal government have anything to do with providing health care (or housing, or food, or school tuition, or anything else of this kind). Ideally, it should be as local as possible.

And ideally, a good start would be medical savings accounts. That, however, would involve substantial tax cuts and, well, you know...
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Rather than an individual act of charity in the name of religious conviction, it would be a collective act of charity that would need to be given under the administrative guidance of the government. To the second part of the question, I think it portends both hope for charity and its efficient administration as well.


We are at a major philosophical crossroads at this point. There is no such thing as a "collective act of charity". The concept is unintelligible, especially in a free, constitutional republic. Charity is individual and from the heart of each individual, or it does not occur.

Further, charity "under the administrative guidance of the state" can only be understood as Orwellian. What this implies is a system of coerced charity; taxes forcibly extracted by the state from the people to give as alms, the very antithesis of any concept of charity that makes any conceptual sense. The other major problem with this is that the state does not give, and cannot give charity, because the state has no charity, and is not a charitable institution. The state is force and law, period. We handed the federal government the responsibility for much charity some forty years ago, and the catastrophe has not ended yet.

The incentives and governing directives of politicians are substantially different from those of private individuals or organizations, and those incentives are, or course, primarily political, not charitable. Charity, in political hands, always becomes a means of social control and the creation of dependence upon the political class for that which is needed.

If given long enough leash, for a long enough period of time, this will, eventually spell the end of liberty, even if the sheep are healthy.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

Coggins7 wrote:
The problem is--much faith as I have in the invisible hand--I think the free market will always run into a few hiccups. Monopolies will occasionally happen. Another problem with free markets is the tragedy of the commons (overgrazing, pollution, etc.).


Asbestos, the "tragedy of the commons" is a problem of socialist economic relations, not free market.

The "tragedy of the commons" also includes the "free-market" problem of over-fishing and the free market problem of polluting the air, water, and land (and no, I'm not talking about AGW). In any case, I agreed in an earlier post that the "tragedy of the commons" is also a socialist problem and I agree that government meddling with health care would run into this problem (would the government cover plastic surgery?). I think free markets still run into problems like monopolies (natural monopolies like electricity and water for example, could be economically inefficient if one is not careful). All I'm saying is that the free market isn't a panacea even though I tend to prefer it. I just think it needs a little help now and then to avoid problem areas. The less help the better though.

By the way, I'm not totally against government help of private individuals, but I would stipulate that this occur at no level higher than the state level (and even this is giving a lot of libertarian ground. The states don't have a great deal of credibility either, but at least there that much closer to the populace they serve). In no manner should the federal government have anything to do with providing health care (or housing, or food, or school tuition, or anything else of this kind). Ideally, it should be as local as possible.

It hurts my libertarian leanings too. I just think it's the lesser of evils.
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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

Coggins7 wrote:
Rather than an individual act of charity in the name of religious conviction, it would be a collective act of charity that would need to be given under the administrative guidance of the government. To the second part of the question, I think it portends both hope for charity and its efficient administration as well.


We are at a major philosophical crossroads at this point. There is no such thing as a "collective act of charity". The concept is unintelligible, especially in a free, constitutional republic. Charity is individual and from the heart of each individual, or it does not occur.


I agree with Coggins here. The government is not the way to acccomplish charity. My motivation for governmental help is not charity. It is simply to fix what I see as a problem that I cannot see a solution to in any other way. The church is not picking up the insurance tab for those clost to me who are uninsurable. I don't think the church has the resources to do so. Maybe that means the governement doesn't have the resources either, but yet I think something could be done as is done for company health insurance policies and I think the government has the best shot at it. Maybe a mandate that insurance companies come up with some plan to insure those with pre-existing conditions (which would raise the rates for everyone else, but at least then everyone could choose to have coverage).
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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I agree with Coggins here. The government is not the way to acccomplish charity. My motivation for governmental help is not charity. It is simply to fix what I see as a problem that I cannot see a solution to in any other way. The church is not picking up the insurance tab for those clost to me who are uninsurable. I don't think the church has the resources to do so. Maybe that means the governement doesn't have the resources either,



This is not a small point. The government, indeed, does not have the resources, because the government has no money. What this really boils down to, is that the economy of the United States cannot sustain universal health care and still maintain economic viability. Oh, it could, as a matter of sheer financial confiscation and transfer of wealth from the private sector to the public sector, support such as system, but this would come at a substantial cost in other areas, and living standards in other areas would decline noticeably (as the power and size of government grew substantially).

We live in a world of scare resources with alternative uses. Our choices, in the realm of politics, are always trade offs, never solutions.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

Coggins7 wrote:What this really boils down to, is that the economy of the United States cannot sustain universal health care and still maintain economic viability.


We live in a world of scare resources with alternative uses. Our choices, in the realm of politics, are always trade offs, never solutions.

It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. I'd be satisfied with government mandated availability of health care insurance for the (currently) uninsurable. If charities and churches then pick up the tab for the poor (maybe through some kind of insurance), I'd be pretty happy.
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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

No, I didn't say it was all or nothing. Its a trade off, and we have to be willing to live with the opportunity costs and direct costs in other areas to get what we desire in another. We have to make an economic decision, and then live with the consequences.
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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

Coggins7 wrote:No, I didn't say it was all or nothing. Its a trade off, and we have to be willing to live with the opportunity costs and direct costs in other areas to get what we desire in another. We have to make an economic decision, and then live with the consequences.

It's more than just economic to me. It's about quality of life and opportunity. I believe in giving people a decent shot at life even when they are dealt a poor opening hand. That's another reason I believe in public education. Now, that dosn't mean I think everyone should have an equal shot at things. I just think there should be an opportunity for people to greatly improve themselves through hard work--to at least be self-sustaining through work where that is possible. Being born in poverty and then not given an education makes that impossible. With an education it's still hard, but at least then it's somewhat more likely.

I think, for example, that it's right for the government to mandate handicapped accessibility--I don't think that economics is the right way to view that question. I am willing to live with the consequences of a government mandate in that case because I think the flip side costs too much for those who would otherwise be discriminated against (for economic reasons--installing handicapped-friendly access may cost more than it generates).
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