Dynasitc Marriages-Doctrinal Question

[_rcrocket]

Because I am a believer and uphold the faith I am required to accept FAIR and FARMS sources? Why is that?

[_Yoda]

Because I am a believer and uphold the faith I am required to accept FAIR and FARMS sources? Why is that?

I didn't say that you were required to accept any source. But you, yourself stated the following:

Don't demand that I defend either FARMS or FAIR. Don't quote FARMS or FAIR sources to me; I don't accept them except in isolated instances.

(Bold emphasis mine)

You DO accept FARMS and FAIR sources in isolated instances. How am I, or anyone else to know, what those "isolated circumstances" are unless we bring them up? Why are you so defensive?

Since it appears you didn't understand my questions, I'll attempt to clarify:

1. Why, in this particular circumstance, do you feel that this FAIR source is inaccurate?

2. What source did you glean your information from regarding the incident with Jacobs?

[_rcrocket]

Ok. Fine. I don't accept FARMS publications as authority here. Don't cite them to me; I'll ignore them. FAIR is not peer reviewed, and FARMS is so despised here that I'd be foolish to accept it as authority.

[_Yoda]

Ok. Fine. I don't accept FARMS publications as authority here.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I am seriously interested. Where did you glean the information you were stating regarding Jacobs? If you know of the specific source, I would really like to read it.

(If it is a book reference, and not online, that is fine, too.)

Thanks!

[_Brackite]

I don't see a FARMS reference there. Looks like a FAIR source. Don't confuse me with FARMS or with FAIR. Don't demand that I defend either FARMS or FAIR. Don't quote FARMS or FAIR sources to me; I don't accept them except in isolated instances.

Henry was "silenced" for what he did in England relating to both the Phelps incident and the new wife.

The Phelps incident did Not happen until after Henry Jacobs left his Mission in England. There is absolutely no evidence that Henry Jacobs was dis-fellow-shipped, because of his marriage to his new wife, Aseneth.

[_harmony]

I don't see a FARMS reference there. Looks like a FAIR source. Don't confuse me with FARMS or with FAIR. Don't demand that I defend either FARMS or FAIR. Don't quote FARMS or FAIR sources to me; I don't accept them except in isolated instances.

Henry was "silenced" for what he did in England relating to both the Phelps incident and the new wife.

The Phelps incident did Not happen until after Henry Jacobs left his Mission in England. There is absolutely no evidence that Henry Jacobs was dis-fellow-shipped, because of his marriage to his new wife, Aseneth.

Brackie, please keep up the good work!

I also am curious to see how Crock wiggles out of this one. In order to maintain Crock's current stance, Henry's church sanction must be because of his unsanctioned marriage to a second wife, not because of something he did that was outside of his priesthood capabilities. That is clearly not the case, just as the Fanny incident is clearly not a plural marriage, but I doubt that Crock is able to accept such a bitter pill.

I foresee a disappearance from the board as a worst case scenario. At best, I suspect all we'll see is more tap dancing around the elephant in the living room.

[_Jason Bourne]

Because I am a believer and uphold the faith I am required to accept FAIR and FARMS sources? Why is that?

Liz did not say that. She asked when or why you do or don't accept them as a source.

[_Brackite]

Hello,

by the way, Runtu quoted Paul above as well as Jesus pointing to one wife.

Why don't you check your Greek New Testament and tell me if this should instead be construed as "a wife" rather than "one wife?"

Here is 1 Timothy Chapter 3, Verses 1-3, found in the New King James Version of the Bible:

1 Timothy 3:1-3: (NKJV):

Qualifications of Overseers

1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,[a] he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;

Here is Part from a Commentary on 1 Timothy 3:2:

[b] b. Husband of one wife: The idea here is of “A one-woman man.” It is not that a leader must be married (if so, then both Jesus and Paul could not be spiritual leaders in our churches). Nor is the idea that leader could never remarry if his wife had passed away or was Biblically divorced. The idea is that is love and affection and heart is given to one woman, and that being his lawful and wedded wife.

i. This means that the Biblical leader is not a playboy, an adulterer, a flirt, and does not show romantic or sexual interest in other women, including the depictions or images of women in pornography.

( http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/5403.htm )

Now, Here is 1 Timothy Chapter 3, Verses 1-3, found in the New International Version of the Bible:

Timothy 3:1-3: (NIV):

Overseers and Deacons

1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

[_Brackite]

Hello,

The way the scriptures record it, David's condemnation came because he took the wife of anyother, and had the man killed to cover up the adultery. Solomon's condemnation came not because of his plural wives, but because he married women who were on the forbidden list.

Doctrine and Covenants 132: 38-39 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me. David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife;

Ah but there is the rub. Jacob 2 does not make that exception and and D&C 132 DRIECTLY contradicts this.

Yes, You are Correct about this here, Jason. Jacob Chapter Two, does not make an exception for Polygamy, and Doctrine and Covenants Section 132 does indeed Directly contradicts Jacob Chapter Two.

Here is Jacob Chapter two, Verse Seven:

Jacob 2:7:

[7] And also it grieveth me that I must use so much boldness of speech concerning you, before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God;

Now, Here is Jacob Chapter two, Verse 24:

Jacob 2:24:

[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

It was Not how or the way how King David and King Solomon had many wives and concubines that was abominable before the Lord God, It is that they just truly actually in fact had many wives and concubines, which was indeed abominable before the Lord God. This interpretation is very, very much in harmony with the obvious interpretation of Jacob 2:7, which does Not mean it was the how or the way how the wives' and children's feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, it means very much of what it states, is that, the wives; and children's feelings are truly indeed exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before the Lord God. King David And King Solomon in fact truly having many wives and concubines, by itself, is that which was indeed truly abominable before the Lord God.

[_Brackite]

Hello,

There are a few more Places in the Book of Mormon where it explicitly Refers to, and states that Polygamy is abominable, and also is an abomination, in addition to Jacob Chapter Two. Here is Mosiah Chapter 11, Verses 1-4, and Verse 14:

Mosiah 11:1-4, & 14:

[1] And now it came to pass that Zeniff conferred the kingdom upon Noah, one of his sons; therefore Noah began to reign in his stead; and he did not walk in the ways of his father.

[2] For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And he did cause his people to commit sin, and do that which was abominable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness.

[3] And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver, and a fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper, and of their brass and their iron; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain.

[4] And all this did he take to support himself, and his wives and his concubines; and also his priests, and their wives and their concubines; thus he had changed the affairs of the kingdom.

...

[14] And it came to pass that he placed his heart upon his riches, and he spent his time in riotous living with his wives and his concubines; and so did also his priests spend their time with harlots.

Now, Here is Ether Chapter 10, Verses 5-7:

Ether 10:5-7:

[5] And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines, and did lay that upon men's shoulders which was grievous to be borne; yea, he did tax them with heavy taxes; and with the taxes he did build many spacious buildings.

[6] And he did erect him an exceedingly beautiful throne; and he did build many prisons, and whoso would not be subject unto taxes he did cast into prison; and whoso was not able to pay taxes he did cast into prison; and he did cause that they should labor continually for their support; and whoso refused to labor he did cause to be put to death.

[7] Wherefore he did obtain all his fine work, yea, even his fine gold he did cause to be refined in prison, and all manner of fine workmanship he did cause to be wrought in prison. And it came to pass that he did afflict the people with his whoredoms and abominations.