The worst thing about Mormonism

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_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

mentalgymnast wrote:...if someone claims to hear voices or receive visitations from other worldly beings or whatnot, it is good to evaluate the fruits/outcomes that result over the long haul from those purported visitations.

There are many, are there not, that would agree that the fruits of the LDS church are good. Yea, even white and delightsome to the soul. To some extent, it seems that Joseph Smith's visitations and voices in the head should be evaluated accordingly.

Regards,
MG


No. The only thing that is proved by certain beliefs making people happy is that those beliefs make them happy. It has (Alas! Ohime! Oh Vey!) nothing to do with their truth value.

Santa Claus is a case in point. Belief in him makes kids happy. It sometimes even makes them behave well. But it is untrue. And so on, mutatis mutandis ....

I don't like the fact that the universe is arranged this way. But unfortunately, it does not seem to care a lot about the way we feel.

[In case you are wondering, the consequence I draw from the fact that nothing else in the universe seems to care about us is not "Hey! Let's get high on crack and rape hot teenagers!" but rather "Let's be real nice to each other, because nothing else gives a s**t about us".]
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Some Schmo wrote:
dartagnan wrote:Schmo obvioulsy has issues with the English language. I provided several valid definitions for the verb "to know." By definition, I know God exists. He has no argument against it. All he can do is assert it isn't true and to declare me a moron for saying it. That's his best response!

It drives him nuts that I can legitimately claim to know something he doesn't believe to be true, so he has to give in to name-calling since that is all he has left.

Well, fine Shmoe. Kids will be kids and all that jaz, but don't expect anyone to believe you're taking the "intellectual" high road over me when this is all you have to fall back on.

You're an embarrassment to atheists, if not yourself.


Let me try to explain this to you in really small words so that maybe the message will penetrate that tiny, primitive blob of jello you call your brain.

I don't have issues with the English language. I tend to bend to its will rather than trying to make it bend to mine. Given that it's a means of communication, it's more important to me to use words in a sense that most people understand them, not according to a definition that suits my own agenda.

If someone started going off saying that gravity doesn't exist, or that it made things fall up, do you think I'd waste my time debating them? Why would I bother? If a person doesn't bring basic common sense to the table, there's no point to trying to convince them of anything. You think the rules of this forum somehow dictate that I should dispute your "argument" but the fact is that you're a lost cause. Your "argument" isn't worthy of contention. It's not even debatable. How does one argue that a circle is round with someone claiming it has four sides? Most people consider the roundness of a circle as a given.

And for this reason, all I can do is point and laugh. You want to regard this as a signal that you've somehow "won the debate" when in fact all it means is that you're a crackpot who's been dismissed appropriately as a crackpot.

Besides, you're such a sad little panda, and I'm just trying to cheer you up. Explaining to you how you're wrong wouldn't help that.


Firstly, I'd like to point out that having spent perhaps too much time in online discussion for years, it is my observation that no poster or group of posters ever "win" a debate on a board like this. It simply doesn't happen. What does happen is that one or more posters becomes weary of the debate/discussion because the thread devolves into something quite off topic, the proverbial "pissing contest" and departs the thread. There is no "victory" to be found in online discussion or debate. The process of exchanging views, ideas and information prior to the unraveling of the thread is where the value lies, IMHO. Having said that...

For a believer to claim that they "know" there is a god is intellectually dishonest. One can "believe" one can "assume" one can "hope" for the existence of God however in all cases the evidence that one has personally collected is always subjective in nature and cannot be viewed as empirical evidence for anything except the person's perception of events in their life. The more accurate statement would be:

"I intuit God".

For a believer to forward anything more than their own intuition regarding God isn't self honest nor is it intellectually honest.
_mentalgymnast

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Chap wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:...if someone claims to hear voices or receive visitations from other worldly beings or whatnot, it is good to evaluate the fruits/outcomes that result over the long haul from those purported visitations.

There are many, are there not, that would agree that the fruits of the LDS church are good. Yea, even white and delightsome to the soul. To some extent, it seems that Joseph Smith's visitations and voices in the head should be evaluated accordingly.

Regards,
MG


No. The only thing that is proved by certain beliefs making people happy is that those beliefs make them happy. It has (Alas! Ohime! Oh Vey!) nothing to do with their truth value.

Santa Claus is a case in point. Belief in him makes kids happy. It sometimes even makes them behave well. But it is untrue. And so on, mutatis mutandis ....


More to it than being happy. The Santa Clause myth/tradition didn't result in a book of scripture that claims to be from God...an ancient artifact. This particular fruit of Joseph Smith's visitations is still the number one hot topic between believers and skeptics. Even today:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... linearplus

There are other fruits besides "being happy".

Regards,
MG
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Chap wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:...if someone claims to hear voices or receive visitations from other worldly beings or whatnot, it is good to evaluate the fruits/outcomes that result over the long haul from those purported visitations.

There are many, are there not, that would agree that the fruits of the LDS church are good. Yea, even white and delightsome to the soul. To some extent, it seems that Joseph Smith's visitations and voices in the head should be evaluated accordingly.

Regards,
MG


No. The only thing that is proved by certain beliefs making people happy is that those beliefs make them happy. It has (Alas! Ohime! Oh Vey!) nothing to do with their truth value.

Santa Claus is a case in point. Belief in him makes kids happy. It sometimes even makes them behave well. But it is untrue. And so on, mutatis mutandis ....


More to it than being happy. The Santa Clause myth/tradition didn't result in a book of scripture that claims to be from God...an ancient artifact. This particular fruit of Joseph Smith's visitations is still the number one hot topic between believers and skeptics. Even today:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... linearplus

There are other fruits besides "being happy".

Regards,
MG


My post was an answer to the one I quote above, in which you direct attention to your claim that the consequences (or as you put it "fruits") of [belief in] the LDS church are "good". In my answer I pointed out that belief in Santa Claus also has "fruits" that are undoubtedly good, in that it can make children happy, but also make them behave well.

For some reason, you chose not to refer to the undoubted moral results of belief in Santa Claus, and referred only to its euphoric effects.

Now you seem to (temporarily at least) abandon the argument in favor of LDS belief based on its supposed euphoric and moral effects and instead you claim that another "fruit" that counts in its favor is that it has associated with it "a book of scripture that claims to be from God...an ancient artifact". You seem to regard it as a point in favor of this "fruit" that believers and disbelievers conduct internet discussions about the status and significance of this allegedly "ancient" text.

I do not see the force of that argument at all. Hardly any educated person not born into the CoJCoLDS and who has paid any systematic attention to the Book of Mormon (or to other 'scriptures' such as the Book of Abraham) sees them as anything other than 19th century frauds. A small proportion of such people argue on the internet with a few of the tiny proportion of the human race for whom belief in these texts is de fide. How does that fact count as evidence in favor of the truth value of the claims of the CoJCoLDS?
_BishopRic
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Post by _BishopRic »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Chap wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:...if someone claims to hear voices or receive visitations from other worldly beings or whatnot, it is good to evaluate the fruits/outcomes that result over the long haul from those purported visitations.

There are many, are there not, that would agree that the fruits of the LDS church are good. Yea, even white and delightsome to the soul. To some extent, it seems that Joseph Smith's visitations and voices in the head should be evaluated accordingly.

Regards,
MG


No. The only thing that is proved by certain beliefs making people happy is that those beliefs make them happy. It has (Alas! Ohime! Oh Vey!) nothing to do with their truth value.

Santa Claus is a case in point. Belief in him makes kids happy. It sometimes even makes them behave well. But it is untrue. And so on, mutatis mutandis ....


More to it than being happy. The Santa Clause myth/tradition didn't result in a book of scripture that claims to be from God...an ancient artifact. This particular fruit of Joseph Smith's visitations is still the number one hot topic between believers and skeptics. Even today:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... linearplus

There are other fruits besides "being happy".

Regards,
MG


Another apropos analogy might be the Seventh-Day Adventists. Their founder Ellen White wrote a book considered scripture to their members. Recently, it was learned that the book was plagiarized from another source (sound familiar?). Following the tenets of the work made many people "happy," but did it make it "true?" The church admitted the evidence, and no longer considers the book scripture, but it is still referred to in their teachings -- simply as good principles to follow. So whether a book is written or not, looks like at least one other religion may follow the tenets of a book -- taking the goodness from it to lead a good life -- even if the book is fiction.
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

chap,
That argument will only persuade those who are so over-awed by the prestige of the lexicographer, that they are willing to join dartagnan in promoting him from his actual role of trying to capture the constantly changing usage of words in short phrases (which is all you can fit into a dictionary) to the role of a philosophical arbiter who tells us how we ought to think.

Apparently chap, you've already forgotten what the argument actually is, and even who proposed it. The argument was set forth by Schmoe, who insisted that my knowledge isn't really knowledge. He hasn't provided any evidence for this aside from puerile ridicule and bald assertion. The burden of proof, therefore, remains on his shoulders. One shouldn't simply take it for granted that his assertion is true, and that I must therefore prove otherwise.

Since there is no means by which I can prove to him that what I know is true (which is different from asking whether it is knowledge) I can at least defend my usage of the term, and deny him his illicit attempt to smuggle it for his own crowd of atheists. Your rhetoric about me telling him how everyone "ought to think" is baseless and nonsensical.
Quite a lot of people whose thinking ability dartagnan probably respects more than that of Homer (no disrespect from me in that direction, though ...) do not base their conclusions on definitions found in dictionaries.

I would appreciate it if you'd first try to understand what I'm saying before joining the bandwagon of fatuous behavior. My conclusion that I have knowledge is not strictly based on the dictionary; rather, it is supported by the dictionary. Now it is up to you to explain how the dictionary doesn't really count as support. You must give us a reason to assume the lexicographer in this instance was really out to lunch when that definition was set in place. One doesn't need to be "over-awed by the prestige" of a lexicographer in order to take it for granted that the published definitions might actually have some valid application in the English language.
Socrates talked a lot, and (many would say) very perceptively, about what words meant - but there simply weren't any dictionaries to distract him or his interlocutors in his day and age. What Socrates did was to prompt people to systematic reflection on how they used words, and what they meant by them. If dartagnan will try that with "know" "knowledge", "believe" and "belief" he will find that he has more fun and persuades more people than if he just hits them over the head with a dictionary and yells "I am right, by definition".

First of all, this was to reiterate the point that Schmo's assertion had not been established. I was on firm ground. The flexibility of the term "knowledge" and the fact that it has various meanings doesn't mitigate the fact that one of them establishes my point and Schmo is left empty-handed again. Secondly, to suggest an intellectual discussion about semantics could possibly take place with Homer Simpson, needs only one response: Are you serious?
Modern examples of the kind of reflection I am talking about can be found in many places. One kind I know a little bit about was done by people like A.J. Ayer: see http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ayer/#5, or for Ayer's own words, the first chapter in his relevantly-titled book The Problem of Knowledge.. This characterisation of his position from the Stanford site is pretty fair, and saves me typing out stuff:

And I suppose this kind of argument will only persuade those who are so "over-awed by the prestige" of Ayer, that they will completely ignore the other philosophical inputs that have changed the face of epistemology over the past century. Of the various explanations, theories or models proposed by scholars, why must we accept Ayer's as the model by which "we ought to think"?
Obviously Ayer's suggestion about what should be counted as knowledge is not given to us from Sinai, or even from Joseph Smith, and we don't have to accept it. Many have argued against his position.

Precisely.
But I think it still has a lot going for it as a summary of how reflective people tend to use that word, especially that bit about knowledge involving having "a right to be sure".

I don't think it is a summary of how people tend to use the word. People generally use the word even though they cannot prove to outside parties, the truth of what it is they claim to know. The "right to be sure" is something given to the person claiming knowledge. It is conceded when someone else is personally satisfied by evidence that the knowledge is true. It is a judgment call by outside parties who seek to be persuaded. So when you ask me this, it is essentially another way of asking me how I can convince you that I know what I know, and I have already addressed this.
dartagnan's claim to knowledge seems to fall under the second category.

No, I'm not saying "trust me, I know." I'm saying my knowledge is independent of anyone else's belief that I do or don't have knowledge. Ayer doesn't help Schmo's case, and I think you know this. Ayer goes on to say,

"And here there can be no question of proving that this attitude is mistaken. Where there are recognized criteria for deciding when one has the right to be sure, anyone who insists that their being satisfied is still not enough for knowledge may be accused, for what the charge is worth, of misusing the verb ‘to know’. But it is possible to find, or at any rate to devise, examples which are not covered in this respect by any established rule of usage. Whether they are to count as instances of knowledge is then a question which we are left free to decide...I conclude then that the necessary and sufficient conditions for knowing that something is the case are first that what one is said to know be true, secondly that one be sure of it, and thirdly that one should have the right to be sure. This right may be earned in various ways; but even if one could give a complete description of them it would be a mistake to try to build it into the definition of knowledge, just as it would be a mistake to try to incorporate our actual standards of goodness into a definition of good."

Schmo needs to come up with a valid definition of the word and then he has to explain why "everyone ought to think that way."
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Schmo,

I don't have issues with the English language. I tend to bend to its will rather than trying to make it bend to mine. Given that it's a means of communication, it's more important to me to use words in a sense that most people understand them, not according to a definition that suits my own agenda.

Oh now that's rich. You claim knowledge doesn't mean X, and when I prove that it does, you accuse me of using the dictionary to suit my "agenda." No, I just used it to bludgeon your silly assertion to dust. Now what are you left with? Just more sarcasm.
If someone started going off saying that gravity doesn't exist, or that it made things fall up, do you think I'd waste my time debating them? Why would I bother?

Nobody should bother, because gravity is scientifically proven. The day science proves God doesn't exist will be the day you can say I no longer have knowledge of his existence. Until that day comes, you're just getting drunk on your own sarcasm.
If a person doesn't bring basic common sense to the table, there's no point to trying to convince them of anything.

Well, that explains why more people respond to me than you (you walked right into that one).
You think the rules of this forum somehow dictate that I should dispute your "argument" but the fact is that you're a lost cause. Your "argument" isn't worthy of contention. It's not even debatable.

Why don't you listen and learn, if not from me, then from those around you who do know what they are talking about? EAllusion just explained how it is debatable. It is really too moot of a point to even bother bringing it up. But no, you can't have theists saying they have knowledge. Release the Cracken!
You want to regard this as a signal that you've somehow "won the debate" when in fact all it means is that you're a crackpot who's been dismissed appropriately as a crackpot.

By whom? The Dawkins crackpot crowd? Consider me honored.

You do realize of course, that, despite popular myth, not all scientists reject the existence of God. In fact, most of them apparently don't.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

EAllusion,
The old standard definition of knowledge in philosophy is justified, true belief. This has been the case, more or less, since Plato. As it turns out this isn't without fault. Look up Gettier problems if you want to get a sense why this doesn't quite work.

Yes, I am familiar with this, and I think it pretty much supports my case. Theories of knowledge are still being debated in scholarship.
If your belief isn't true, then you don't "know." I just don't think it is necessary to quibble over technical definitions and am happy to think that you think you know God exists.

And this is one of those pleasant things that distinguishes you from simpletons like Schmo. It doesn't bother you, but he can't hack it. The fact that I say I know God exists drives him absolutely nuts. Why? Because he doesn't know it, and he just cannot accept a definition of knowledge that disrupts his world of settled assumptions. If I were inventing a definition from thin air, I can see why someone might protest. But it is a valid definition. It boggles the mind why anyone would think they'd be on solid ground trying to argue otherwise.
But Schmo likely wasn't going this route anyway. He likely was using "belief" and "know" in terms of certainty.

Schmo believes knowledge is not really knowledge unless it can pass the scientific method. He follows a scientistic worldview the same as Dawkins and Shermer. Now can someone please explain to me why I should follow such a ridiculously narrow understanding of knowledge, just because they say so?
To believe is to weakly support truth

Of course. But the issue is whether I know, not whether I believe. And you raise another issue that can be debated as well. The concept of truth. It is as disputed as the concept of knowledge. So to use a disputed concept (truth) to define another disputed concept (knowledge), seems to make the later even more uncertain than Schmo would have us believe.

So why is Schmo insisting I do not really know, unless he can declare with certainty, what knowledge can and cannot be?
to know is to approach absolute certainty.

I appreciate your caution with this statement. You don't say it is certainty.
Since he doesn't think one can know God in the sense of having rock-hard justification, that's why he claims you can't know God and would be a fool to claim otherwise. Meh. I think these are highly unproductive uses of those terms. Indeed, I'm not sure we can know anything given the how strict the criteria is to know in this sense.

You're very familiar with the debate over knowledge. Schmo isn't.

In the meantime, I see no reason why I should feel compelled to toss the word out of my vocabulary simply because disgruntled atheists don't like me using it. The question should be, do I have just cause for applying it to my knowledge? The answer is yes.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

dartagnan wrote:...more wailing and moaning...


OK, little darte. Whatever you say, little one. There there... settle down now, baby boy. Quit yer fussin'.

(I wonder why you're so insecure? Not enough hugs in your life, maybe? Hmph. Not that I care... it's just kind of sad. Oh well).
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_silentkid
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Post by _silentkid »

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:
silentkid wrote:So far, I think Kenneth Miller's approach is the best.

...interested in what you mean here SK. You mean his approach to the 'God question'?


Sorry it took me so long to respond, Ren. Rough weekend. I think Miller's approach to the "God Question" and how it relates to Darwinism is the best of what I've read so far. I really like Dawkins' approach as well, but he's a bit heavy-handed for some (same goes for Harris and Hitchens, but neither one of them is a scientist). Gould's NOMA approach is good as well, but it really doesn't allow for any overlap or gray areas where science and religion conflict. It just says they shouldn't overstep their bounds, and if they don't, no problem. Also, Gould was an atheist, which means that many theists won't read him just for that reason. Miller is a believer (though his belief is pretty restricted...one needs to read his book to get a handle on how that works), so it is easier for theists to accept his position. Miller is not a creationist or a defender of ID. In fact, he is one of the best critics of ID around. He's the guy, if you saw the PBS special on the Dover Area School District trial, who completely dismantled Behe's irreducible complexity argument. Can an evolutionary biologist/respected scientist still believe in God? I think so, and Miller is an example of one. You won't see him making any god of the gaps arguments, though.

Thanks for posting that link to his lecture. I haven't watched it yet, but will when time permits.
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