A Conversation Among the Four Horsemen

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Post by _Moniker »

GoodK wrote:
by the way I have to say I love Dan Dennett. He's the most huggable of all the scary atheists!


Oh! I love him too! Sooooo much....... I actually get all gooshy reading him....... and now watching him......

He says spiritual people are like honorary vertebrates! That's me! I love his humor. :)

I also like him because he isn't condescending and doesn't approach theists with ridicule... the ridicule does NOT appeal to me.

I'll finish the videos tonight.

Thanks, Schmo, for putting up the links!

Edited to add: Here's Breaking The Spell online if anyone hasn't read it.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/268427/Dennet ... Phenomenon
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

dartagnan wrote:
I have both part 1 and 2 on my iphone, and I listen to it regularly.


OK, now that's just creepy.

Could one argue that you listen to it religiously?


I do listen to it religiously... for a lot of reasons.

Mainly because there is so much that they talk about, you can't possibly catch it all in one go-round. Or two.

Another is because it is one of the few videos online with Dennett, and he does a fabulous job.

Call me creepy...
Last edited by _GoodK on Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

dartagnan wrote:Oh wow, a convenient echo chamber. Yea, we're sure to learn plenty.

I wonder why Alister McGrath wasn't invited to their little tea party.


I heard he was invited, but was too busy finding signs of the Trinity on a nature hike with Francis Collins.

Edited to add: Just in case that was over your head:

Sam Harris & Dennis Prager debate wrote:Collins, as you probably know, has just published a book-length defense of religious faith entitled The Language of God. It is a masterpiece of simple-mindedness. For instance, Collins describes the moment that he, a top-tier scientist, became convinced of the divinity of Jesus Christ:

"On a beautiful fall day, as I was hiking in the Cascade Mountains…the majesty and beauty of God’s creation overwhelmed my resistance. As I rounded a corner and saw a beautiful and unexpected frozen waterfall, hundreds of feet high, I knew the search was over. The next morning, I knelt in the dewy grass as the sun rose and surrendered to Jesus Christ."

A recent profile of Collins in Time adds a priceless detail: The waterfall was frozen in three streams, and this put the good doctor in mind of the Trinity! Earlier you wrote that I would not “even understand” the evidence that a genius like Francis Collins would put forward in defense of his faith. I confess you may be right about this.
_Mercury
_Emeritus
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:14 pm

Post by _Mercury »

dartagnan wrote:Oh wow, a convenient echo chamber. Yea, we're sure to learn plenty.

I wonder why Alister McGrath wasn't invited to their little tea party.


Are you done masturbating to your picture of Jerry Falwell yet? I think Willard wants to borrow it.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

The other day I picked up a copy of McGrath's book, The Dawkins Delusion?. It had been a long time since I had read anything by McGrath, but I quickly became impressed with the ease by which he dismantled so many of Dawkins' arguments.

I mean he really made Dawkins look like a moron on so many occassions. Dawkins complains because God isn't proved by scientific processes, yet he turns around and speaks of his theoretical meme concept, as if it were a matter of fact, when there has been absolutely no science to support it. And I get a kick out of the way Dawkins ignores issues like free will because they "don't interest me." Anything that causes his pet theories trouble, he's not interested in discussing. He obviously isn't interested in religion as a social construct either. He prefers to solve sociological problems with biological answers. Absurd. The guy has no authority to speak on half of what he is opining about. On the other hand, this book was written by McGrath and his wife, both of whom are exceptionally qualified. McGrath is an expert of Christianity and its relation to science whereas his wife is an authority on the psychology of religion.

He also said Dawkins used to offer a citation by Tertullian: "it is by all means to be believed because it is absurd." Dawkins used this as proof that Christian tehology is based stricly on blind faith and anti-reason, and that past authorities were proud of it!

McGrath told him that citation didn't exist, so he immediately stopped using it. I thought Dawkins was a careful scholar?

McGrath said Dawkins then turned around and started mining the "internet" (yes, the internet!) for similar quotations by Martin Luther, without verifying their veracity or making teh slightest attempt to properly understand their contexts. This is something only someone like JAK could appreciate.

I was also impressed with the atheists who have disavowed Dawkins' book as a piece of antagonistic nonsense.

The book is a wonderful read, but it can be a bit unsettling for those who idolize Dawkins and his "horsemen."

Anyway, nobody should be discussing these issues without dealing with McGrath. Here is an article he wrote last year:

[God] is a 'psychotic delinquent', invented by mad, deluded people. And that's one of Dawkins's milder criticisms.

Dawkins, Oxford University's Professor for the Public Understanding of Science, is on a crusade.

His salvo of outrage and ridicule is meant to rid the world of its greatest evil: religion. "If this book works as I intend," he says, "religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down." But he admits such a result is unlikely. "Dyed-in-the-wool faith-heads" (that's people who believe in God) are "immune to argument", he says.

I have known Dawkins for more than 20 years; we are both Oxford professors. I believe if anyone is "immune to argument" it is him. He comes across as a dogmatic, aggressive propagandist.

Of course, back in the Sixties, everyone who mattered was telling us that religion was dead. I was an atheist then. Growing up as a Protestant in Northern Ireland, I had come to believe religion was the cause of the Province's problems. While I loved studying the sciences at school, they were important for another reason: science disproved God. Believing in God was only for sad, mad and bad people who had yet to be enlightened by science.

I went up to Oxford to study the sciences in 1971, expecting my atheism to be consolidated. In the event, my world was turned upside down. I gave up one belief, atheism, and embraced another, Christianity. Why? There were many factors. For a start, I was alarmed by some atheist writings, which seemed more preoccupied with rubbishing religion than seeking the truth.

Above all, I encountered something at Oxford that I had failed to meet in Northern Ireland - articulate Christians who were able to challenge my atheism. I soon discovered two life-changing things.

First, Christianity made a lot of sense. It gave me a new way of seeing and understanding the world, above all, the natural sciences. Second, I discovered Christianity actually worked: it brought purpose and dignity to life.

I kept studying the sciences, picking up a PhD for research in molecular biophysics. But my heart and mind had been seduced by theology. It still excites me today.

Dawkins and I both love the sciences; we both believe in evidence-based reasoning. So how do we make sense of our different ways of looking at the world? That is one of the issues about which I have often wished we might have a proper discussion. Our paths do cross on the television networks and we even managed to spar briefly across a BBC sofa a few months back. We were also filmed having a debate for Dawkins's recent Channel 4 programme, The Root Of All Evil? Dawkins outlined his main criticisms of God, and I offered answers to what were clearly exaggerations and misunderstandings. It was hardly rocket science.

For instance, Dawkins often compares belief in God to an infantile belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, saying it is something we should all outgrow. But the analogy is flawed. How many people do you know who started to believe in Santa Claus in adulthood?

Many people discover God decades after they have ceased believing in the Tooth Fairy. Dawkins, of course, would just respond that people such as this are senile or mad, but that is not logical argument. Dawkins can no more 'prove' the non-existence of God than anyone else can prove He does exist.

Most of us are aware that we hold many beliefs we cannot prove to be true. It reminds us that we need to treat those who disagree with us with intellectual respect, rather than dismissing them - as Dawkins does - as liars, knaves and charlatans.

But when I debated these points with him, Dawkins seemed uncomfortable. I was not surprised to be told that my contribution was to be cut.

The Root Of All Evil? was subsequently panned for its blatant unfairness. Where, the critics asked, was a responsible, informed Christian response to Dawkins? The answer: on the cutting-room floor.

The God Delusion is similarly full of misunderstanding. Dawkins simply presents us with another dogmatic fundamentalism. Maybe that's why some of the fiercest attacks on The God Delusion are coming from other atheists, rather than religious believers. Michael Ruse, who describes himself as a 'hardline Darwinian' philosopher, confessed that The God Delusion made him 'embarrassed to be an atheist'.

The dogmatism of the work has attracted wide criticism from the secularist community. Many who might be expected to support Dawkins are trying to distance themselves from what they see as an embarrassment.

Aware of the moral obligation of a critic of religion to deal with this phenomenon at its best and most persuasive, many atheists have been disturbed by Dawkins's crude stereotypes and seemingly pathological hostility towards religion. In fact, The God Delusion might turn out to be a monumental own goal - persuading people that atheism is just as intolerant as the worst that religion can offer.


A treasure trove of responses to Dawkins can be found on his website here:
http://www.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/cis/mcgrath/

It is funny how Dawkins doesn't even understand basic concepts like faith and religion. He just creates one straw man after another for the purposes of sensationalism. That does, after all, tend to sell books.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Mercury
_Emeritus
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:14 pm

Post by _Mercury »

dartagnan wrote:
It is funny how Dawkins doesn't even understand basic concepts like faith and religion. He just creates one straw man after another for the purposes of sensationalism. That does, after all, tend to sell books.


Its funny how individuals such as yourself fueled the ignorance and hatred of the dark ages. It is individuals such as yourself that called for the final solution. And it will be individuals like you that will call for the violent overthrow of the American government in order to establish a theocratic society.

I can't wait till that day when we can put a bullet in the head of every corn pone faith-based bigot out there when they try to take america "for god". You are one of those individuals.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

McGrath told him that citation didn't exist, so he immediately stopped using it. I thought Dawkins was a careful scholar?


Isn't that what a careful, honest scholar would do? Correct a mistake instead of ignore it?

I wanted to compare McGrath's awards and recognition wiki-page with Dawkins, just for fun, and found that the Mcgrath doesn't have one. Oops, this will appear even more one sided. Let's give some credit where credit is due:

wikipedia wrote:Dawkins holds honorary doctorates in science from the University of Westminster, the University of Durham[91] and the University of Hull, and an honorary doctorate from the Open University and from the Vrije Universiteit Brussel.[4] He also holds honorary doctorates of letters from the University of St Andrews and Australian National University, and was elected Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in 1997 and Royal Society in 2001.[4] He has been vice-president of the British Humanist Association since 1996.[4]
Dawkins has won numerous awards. In 1987, he received a Royal Society of Literature award and Los Angeles Times Literary Prize, for his book The Blind Watchmaker. In the same year, he received Sci.Tech Prize for Best Television Documentary Science Programmme of the Year, for BBC Horizon Programme, The Blind Watchmaker.[4] His other awards includes Zoological Society of London Silver Medal (1989), Michael Faraday Award (1990), Nakayama Prize (1994), Humanist of the Year Award (1996), the fifth International Cosmos Prize (1997), Kistler Prize (2001), Medal of the Presidency of the Italian Republic (2001), and the Bicentennial Kelvin Medal of The Royal Philosophical Society of Glasgow (2002).[4] Dawkins topped Prospect magazine's 2004 list of the top 100 public British intellectuals, as decided by the readers, receiving twice as many votes as the runner-up.[92] In 2005, the Hamburg-based Alfred Toepfer Foundation awarded him their Shakespeare Prize in recognition of his "concise and accessible presentation of scientific knowledge".[93] He was the winner of the Lewis Thomas Prize for Writing about Science for 2006 and the Galaxy British Book Awards Author of the Year for 2007.[94] In the same year, he was listed in Time magazine as one of the 100 most influential people in the world in 2007,[95] and was awarded the Deschner Prize, named after Karlheinz Deschner.[96]



Here is an interview of Alister McGrath by Richard Dawkins for those of you who haven't seen it yet - be prepared to see Dawkins disemboweled :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6&hl=en-GB
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

This is precisely the reason Dawkins presents more of a danger to society than religion. People like mercury are products of his preachings. And what's worse, he really does believe the trash coming out of his own mouth.

I mean let's be honest here. What have I done here except note a few errors in Dawkins' thesis and link to someone who has responded to him?

Mercury can't handle it, the same way Shmo and JAK can't handle it. They have no tolerance for any other view than their own. They have become so enamoured with Dawkins and pledged blind loyalty to his little tribe, that everyone else is immediately attacked with name-calling, sarcasm and now accused of being part of a massive religious conspiracy to somehow force you all into submission! This is exactly as Dawkins generalizes about all religious people. They have bought into the fear factor, hook line and sinker.

These arguments are straw men the same as most of Dawkins' arguments are entirely straw men. What's this nonsense about a theocratic society? And me being a proponent of one? Christianity has never supported such a thing and it never will. The only people who really believe this are the same people who say George Bush planned 9-11. I certainly don't support any theocracy, but what do I know about my own beliefs when we have real experts like mercury who can apparently analyze my "memes" and detect that I am just lying to you?

I'd like to get some input from the rational thinking atheists here. I am talking about EAllusion, Dr. Shades, chap, Trevor(?) and Tarski. People who can offer something better than "You're ignorant, shut up."
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

dartagnan wrote:This is precisely the reason Dawkins presents more of a danger to society than religion. People like mercury are products of his preachings. And what's worse, he really does believe the trash coming out of his own mouth.

I mean let's be honest here. What have I done here except note a few errors in Dawkins' thesis and link to someone who has responded to him?

Mercury can't handle it, the same way Shmo and JAK can't handle it. They have no tolerance for any other view than their own. They have become so enamoured with Dawkins and pledged blind loyalty to his little tribe, that everyone else is immediately attacked with name-calling, sarcasm and now accused of being part of a massive religious conspiracy to somehow force you all into submission! This is exactly as Dawkins generalizes about all religious people. They have bought into the fear factor, hook line and sinker.

These arguments are straw men the same as most of Dawkins' arguments are entirely straw men. What's this nonsense about a theocratic society? And me being a proponent of one? Christianity has never supported such a thing and it never will. The only people who really believe this are the same people who say George Bush planned 9-11. I certainly don't support any theocracy, but what do I know about my own beliefs when we have real experts like mercury who can apparently analyze my "memes" and detect that I am just lying to you?

I'd like to get some input from the rational thinking atheists here. I am talking about EAllusion, Dr. Shades, chap, Trevor(?) and Tarski. People who can offer something better than "You're ignorant, shut up."


I'm far from rational, so I guess you're ignorant, shut up.


P.S If you want a rational response to McGrath's book, skip forward to the 3 minute 30 second mark in the video, when Dawkins addresses his criticism.


Again, be prepared for him to be demolished by McGrath.
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

Isn't that what a careful, honest scholar would do? Correct a mistake instead of ignore it?

It isn't a mistake you'd expect a careful scholar to make. I mean seriously, just find something from the internet that you like and use it without verifying it? This proves that Dawkins is agenda driven. He begins with an agenda to prove something and he carefully ignores evidence that undermines the thesis while focusing on evidence, or in this case, inventing evidence that seem to support it.
I wanted to compare McGrath's awards and recognition wiki-page with Dawkins, just for fun, and found that the Mcgrath doesn't have one.

I hope you're not following JAK's philosophy: "If the wiki doesn't say it, it simply ain't true." Here is the biography of McGrath, and yes, he has won awards: ftp://oucsweb.ox.ac.uk/public_html/biography.html
Here is an interview of Alister McGrath by Richard Dawkins for those of you who haven't seen it yet - be prepared to see Dawkins disemboweled

McGrath is a gentleman above all. Why would he accept an invitation to be interviewed and then use it to turn against the man interviewing him?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
Post Reply