charity wrote: You say Jesus clearly taught marriage was between one man and one woman. I have asked repeated: Show me those plain and clear teachings. I will accept any New Testament scripture that says this. Oh, not your interpretation of a scripture, but Jesus' actual words, as you say there are such.
You mean this: Matt 19: 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
This does not limit a man to one marriage. That is your interpretation.
And it is yours that is allows polygamy. How does one's mind leap from CLEAVE UNTO HIS WIFE to cleave unto his wive's.
Today I was listening to Ann Wilder from a Mormon stories podast. She is a plural wife in and independent plural marriage group. She loves polygamy, thinks it the idea life style, think the LDS Church has abandoned up to 95 doctrinal issues that were critical to the true church. She went on and on about polygamy then about Adam God. And her comments reminded me so much of your style here Charity.
Do you practice polygamy now? No. She thinks you are apostate then. Do you believe in Adam as your God? No. She thinks you have the wrong God and that Brigham and Joseph most certainly taught this. Do you think God is Eloheim? She says Eloheim is not on individual but a council of Gods. And she has a testimony as sure as yours.
Just to clarify further, this is the scripture that Hanna is referring to. It is Matthew 19:9, and this is the LDS.org version:
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
You are rigth. It is in the Doctrine and Covenants that it is clarified. Notice the bolded part.
Doctrine and Covenants 132: 38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
Yes Charity I am aware of this. God condems it with no exception for David and Solomon int the Book of Mormon-the book that is the key stone to our religion-the most correct book, the book that we can use to get closer to God than any other book. And the D&C directly conflicts with it. So which one is correct? I have never been able to relove this one and it has bothered me long before I had questions about things LDS. And don't give me the continuiing revelation deal. I am not talking about polygamy being allowed and it not being allowed. I am talking about whether David and Solomon comnitted abominations. The Book of Mormon says yes they did and give them no wiggle room out of it.
Who? Come on now... who says this? Give me two current LDS persons and one non LDS person who really knows about these things.
The link below is to a modern Christian polygamy movement. They are not LDS Check it out.
I see you gave me know current LDS leaders who teach this or even those who are experts about this. And who is the person and what is their specialty? Or are they just an apologist for polygamy.
Jason wrote:Yes Charity I am aware of this. God condemns it with no exception for David and Solomon int the Book of Mormon-the book that is the key stone to our religion-the most correct book, the book that we can use to get closer to God than any other book. And the D&C directly conflicts with it. So which one is correct? I have never been able to resolve this one and it has bothered me long before I had questions about things LDS. And don't give me the continuiing revelation deal. I am not talking about polygamy being allowed and it not being allowed. I am talking about whether David and Solomon committed abominations. The Book of Mormon says yes they did and give them no wiggle room out of it.
This is something I have been curious about as well. Even leaders today say that the Book of Mormon is the keystone to our religion, and that it is "the most correct book on earth".
If that is the case, there is a stark conflict here in what is said.
Also, isn't it true that section 132 was not considered part of the official D&C canon until long after Joseph Smith's death?
Jason wrote:Yes Charity I am aware of this. God condemns it with no exception for David and Solomon int the Book of Mormon-the book that is the key stone to our religion-the most correct book, the book that we can use to get closer to God than any other book. And the D&C directly conflicts with it. So which one is correct? I have never been able to resolve this one and it has bothered me long before I had questions about things LDS. And don't give me the continuiing revelation deal. I am not talking about polygamy being allowed and it not being allowed. I am talking about whether David and Solomon committed abominations. The Book of Mormon says yes they did and give them no wiggle room out of it.
This is something I have been curious about as well. Even leaders today say that the Book of Mormon is the keystone to our religion, and that it is "the most correct book on earth".
If that is the case, there is a stark conflict here in what is said.
Also, isn't it true that section 132 was not considered part of the official D&C canon until long after Joseph Smith's death?
Sec 132 was canonized in 1852, If I recall correctly. Brigham sprung it on the Saints in a general conference after they were thousands of miles away from their families and essentially forced them to ratify it or be abandoned in the desert. Nice guy, our Brigham.
That conflict creates a dichotomy that is impossible to ignore, if one accepts the Book of Mormon a the word of God. The only remaining explanation is that Sec 132 is not a valid revelation, because God is not a god of confusion and conflicting revelations is confusion, squared.
Last edited by Yahoo MMCrawler [Bot] on Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Here is the official canonized doctrine as found in the Book of Commandments sec 101. It was replaced by Sec 132.
"Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again."
~dancer~
Some apologists argue that the teaching of monogamy doesn't really count because it was not a "revelation".
This makes no sense to me because Joseph Smith was clearly aware of it, it went through the canonizing process, and was embraced as official scripture by prophets, leaders, and members alike.
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
Jason wrote:Yes Charity I am aware of this. God condemns it with no exception for David and Solomon int the Book of Mormon-the book that is the key stone to our religion-the most correct book, the book that we can use to get closer to God than any other book. And the D&C directly conflicts with it. So which one is correct? I have never been able to resolve this one and it has bothered me long before I had questions about things LDS. And don't give me the continuiing revelation deal. I am not talking about polygamy being allowed and it not being allowed. I am talking about whether David and Solomon committed abominations. The Book of Mormon says yes they did and give them no wiggle room out of it.
This is something I have been curious about as well. Even leaders today say that the Book of Mormon is the keystone to our religion, and that it is "the most correct book on earth". If that is the case, there is a stark conflict here in what is said. Also, isn't it true that section 132 was not considered part of the official D&C canon until long after Joseph Smith's death?
Sec 132 was canonized in 1852, If I recall correctly. Brigham sprung it on the Saints in a general conference after they were thousands of miles away from their families and essentially forced them to ratify it or be abandoned in the desert. Nice guy, our Brigham. That conflict creates a dichotomy that is impossible to ignore, if one accepts the Book of Mormon a the word of God. The only remaining explanation is that Sec 132 is not a valid revelation, because God is not a god of confusion and conflicting revelations is confusion, squared.
During my sixyear investigation, there was one ward president who said BY is his exemplar. I have given him a few saying/sermon/teaching of BY from the JofD (printed in english and hungarian). In the next two years of his reign, he has taken care not to remain téte-a-téte with me.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
truth dancer wrote:Some apologists argue that the teaching of monogamy doesn't really count because it was not a "revelation".
This makes no sense to me because Joseph Smith was clearly aware of it, it went through the canonizing process, and was embraced as official scripture by prophets, leaders, and members alike.
That makes no sense. Monogamy is the default position in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. To argue otherwise is to argue against God.
the road to hana wrote:Charity, a question. Do you think that Jesus Christ ever in his mortal ministry preached to anyone that they should have more than one wife? And if so, why do you think it is lost from current scripture?
Wouldn't early Christians continue the practice if he had taught it, even clandestinely?
You want my personal opinion? Since you asked, please don't hit me with "show me where this is official doctrine." MY OPNION.
Yes, I think plural marriage was practiced during Jesus' mortal ministry. I believe He had plural wives Himself. But I think that after His death and resurrection, the true doctrine was rapidly lost, due to the problem's of communications bewteen the Apostles, and their early deaths. Paul's attitude influenced the Church away from marriage at all. Paul's teachings certainly were influiential in moving the Catholic church toward celibacy as a requirement for its pastors.
And since I believe Jesus was married and had offspring, and this knowledge was kept very well hidden, then it is possible for things to happen clandestinely when that is required for safety.
Jason wrote:Yes Charity I am aware of this. God condemns it with no exception for David and Solomon int the Book of Mormon-the book that is the key stone to our religion-the most correct book, the book that we can use to get closer to God than any other book. And the D&C directly conflicts with it. So which one is correct? I have never been able to resolve this one and it has bothered me long before I had questions about things LDS. And don't give me the continuiing revelation deal. I am not talking about polygamy being allowed and it not being allowed. I am talking about whether David and Solomon committed abominations. The Book of Mormon says yes they did and give them no wiggle room out of it.
This is something I have been curious about as well. Even leaders today say that the Book of Mormon is the keystone to our religion, and that it is "the most correct book on earth".
If that is the case, there is a stark conflict here in what is said.
Also, isn't it true that section 132 was not considered part of the official D&C canon until long after Joseph Smith's death?
Sec 132 was canonized in 1852, If I recall correctly. Brigham sprung it on the Saints in a general conference after they were thousands of miles away from their families and essentially forced them to ratify it or be abandoned in the desert. Nice guy, our Brigham.
That conflict creates a dichotomy that is impossible to ignore, if one accepts the Book of Mormon a the word of God. The only remaining explanation is that Sec 132 is not a valid revelation, because God is not a god of confusion and conflicting revelations is confusion, squared.
I thought it was added to the D&C in like 1871 or 1876?