Dynasitc Marriages-Doctrinal Question

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_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

charity wrote:
liz3564 wrote:Charity, I do hope that you will continue to engage me. I am interested in your take on my comments regarding the comparison between the scriptures in Jacob 2 and D&C 132.

Thanks.


As I have studied these two passages of scripture I see them complementing each other.

What I learn from both is that:
unrighteous sexual relations cause great heartache and are an abomination.
it is not the marital style, but the unrighteousness that is the problem.


You realize you're describing Joseph Smith, right?

God from time to time for His own purposes commands plural marriage (Jacob 2:30)
Whatever God commands, those who live His law are blessed.


Well, let's list the blessings of the early Saints, who had among them men and women who practiced the Abomination in secret in Nauvoo:
their secret and their shame was exposed
their leader was killed
they were driven from their homes in the middle of the winter
they suffered deprivation and hunger, froze, lost their spouses and their children
they were driven into the wilderness
they died in huge numbers on the way
they were tricked into accepting the Abomination
their women shouldered the burden and the shame; their men shouldered the sin
they lost everything, including their dignity

Yeah, that sounds like they were really blessed.

Once they got rid of the Abomination, the blessings returned, they flourished, they prospered.

God will not be mocked.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

charity wrote:
harmony wrote:
charity wrote:.4. And you forget that in Utah, when the Saints were free from government interference, only a small percentage of families were plural. Most were not. Why would the early Saints have not followed that pattern?


Small percentage? Please verify this allegation.


The folks at Signature Books estimate 20-30%. And I think you would probably agree that they aren't going to estimate low. Others say it was more like 2-3%.


You obviously had a source for your claim of "small percentage". Please produce it.
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

charity wrote:
the road to hana wrote:
Here's what doesn't fit with your assertion.

The New Testament is replete with examples of Jesus Christ either complying with existing ritual or setting the example for others. Right in scripture, one can find that he

*was taken for circumcision at the appropriate time according to Jewish law

*was baptized by John the Baptist

*observed the Passover and established the new covenant ritual at the Last Supper

It's recorded that he preached in the synagogues and that he accompanied his parents to the temple. The New Testament scriptures seem to make a point of the ordinances either being complied with, by example, or established.


1.And since He taught in the synagogues, He was most likely married. It would have been extremely rare for an adult male, referred to as rabbi, not to be married.


Again, you need to explain why the marriage isn't covered in scripture, or tradition, if other important rites of passage as example were.

2. And what do you think was happening at the wedding in Cana? Why are guests (if Mary and Jesus were only guests) so concerned about the wine? The host, the groom and his mother, for example, would have been very concerned about the wine. Jesus was the host, at His own wedding. And so, of course, He should see that there was enough wine.


I can assure you there are LDS scholars who dispute your interpretation, and agree with non-LDS scholars that Jesus was a guest at someone else's wedding. It's nonsensical to assume it was his own wedding without a mention of the bride, yet a mention of the mother. The point of the story has entirely to do with his mother talking him into performing his first miracle. If it were his wedding, it's doubtful wine would have been an issue (as you have so conveniently noted).


3. There was plenty of reason to keep Jesus'spouse and offspring in secret. After all the Jews had wanted Him dead, and the Romans didn't want anyone to stir up trouble. The way to get rid of a threat was to erdicate all of that line. They had to keep Jesus' family protected.


If he had multiple spouses, and multiple children, that would be a near impossibility.

4. And you forget that in Utah, when the Saints were free from government interference, only a small percentage of families were plural. Most were not. Why would the early Saints have not followed that pattern?


Do you have evidence of early Christians practicing polygamy following the example of their spiritual leader?

charity wrote:
the road to hana wrote:Therefore, it would make more sense in support of your argument if there were any example of Jesus Christ being married. But there isn't. When he is referred to as "the bridegroom" in New Testament scripture it's always in reference to "the Church" being his bride.


The only reason an analogy has any power fo help us visualize is if there is a real world example of it.


Marriage is included in New Testament scripture, just not any marriage of Jesus Christ. It would not be necessary for him to be married for the analogy to have meaning, or power.

charity wrote:
the road to hana wrote:
Most Christians would really have no difficulty with Christ being married (at least, to one wife only, anyway). The simple fact is that in that regard, the scriptures are conspicuously silent, and wouldn't need to be, since setting an example seems to be an important part of them.


I don't know that statement is correct. I think there are a lot of Christians who have shown that they object to the idea of Jesus being married. The DaVinci Code really got people all riled up at the idea.


The reason Christians as a rule don't adhere to the belief that Jesus Christ was married has more to do with the conspicuous silence on the subject in scripture and tradition than anything else. If he'd been married, likely that would be a part of current theology and understanding. Jesus Christ asked many difficult things of his followers during his tenure; it's unlikely that his being married would have been any more of an obstacle than anything else. It's more likely it would have been held up as an example.

charity wrote:
the road to hana wrote:Christ himself says in Matthew 19 that not all people should marry, so attributing that solely to Paul is flawed. As far as I understand, clerical celibacy arose several centuries later primarily in response to estate complications, and not for theological reasons.


Try telling that to your Catholic buddies.


I'm not sure which buddies you're talking about, but I expect they know that.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
_charity
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Post by _charity »

harmony wrote:
charity wrote:
harmony wrote:
charity wrote:.4. And you forget that in Utah, when the Saints were free from government interference, only a small percentage of families were plural. Most were not. Why would the early Saints have not followed that pattern?


Small percentage? Please verify this allegation.


The folks at Signature Books estimate 20-30%. And I think you would probably agree that they aren't going to estimate low. Others say it was more like 2-3%.


You obviously had a source for your claim of "small percentage". Please produce it.


Here it is. I am okay with 20-30%. That is small.

http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/es ... lygamy.htm
Last edited by Guest on Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
_charity
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Post by _charity »

the road to hana wrote:

I'm not sure which buddies you're talking about, but I expect they know that.


I knew a fair amount of Catholics when I was growing up. They had so accepted celibacy as the "superior" way to live, that thinking that Jesus would have not been celibate would have shocked their shoes off. If you think LDS are ignorant of their history, we are right in line with the way Catholics don't know their history.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

charity wrote:
harmony wrote:
charity wrote:
harmony wrote:
charity wrote:.4. And you forget that in Utah, when the Saints were free from government interference, only a small percentage of families were plural. Most were not. Why would the early Saints have not followed that pattern?


Small percentage? Please verify this allegation.


The folks at Signature Books estimate 20-30%. And I think you would probably agree that they aren't going to estimate low. Others say it was more like 2-3%.


You obviously had a source for your claim of "small percentage". Please produce it.


Here it is. I am okay with 20-30$. That is small.

http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/es ... lygamy.htm


You think 20-30% is SMALL? Obviously the US government didn't agree.
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

charity wrote:
the road to hana wrote:

I'm not sure which buddies you're talking about, but I expect they know that.


I knew a fair amount of Catholics when I was growing up. They had so accepted celibacy as the "superior" way to live, that thinking that Jesus would have not been celibate would have shocked their shoes off. If you think LDS are ignorant of their history, we are right in line with the way Catholics don't know their history.


Well, those are your Catholic buddies, not mine. Any church that would advocate celibacy as "superior" would become, by necessity, extinct.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
_ludwigm
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Post by _ludwigm »

charity wrote:
harmony wrote:
charity wrote:
harmony wrote:
charity wrote:.4. And you forget that in Utah, when the Saints were free from government interference, only a small percentage of families were plural. Most were not. Why would the early Saints have not followed that pattern?
Small percentage? Please verify this allegation.
The folks at Signature Books estimate 20-30%. And I think you would probably agree that they aren't going to estimate low. Others say it was more like 2-3%.
You obviously had a source for your claim of "small percentage". Please produce it.
Here it is. I am okay with 20-30$. That is small.


Was the "20-30$ " a freudian slip?

It is 10$. That is small.

In the Journal of Discourses/Volume 8/Funds of the Church Brigham Young says "The teasers who come all the time after women, and soon get tired of them and want to divorce them, I make pay ten dollars for each divorce, and that is my individual bank."
(Remarks by President BRIGHAM YOUNG, made in the Bowery, Great Salt Lake City, October 8, 1860. REPORTED BY G. D. WATT. - Online document scan Journal of Discourses, Volume 8 pg 202)

Commandment of God, eeeeh ...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_ludwigm
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Post by _ludwigm »

the road to hana wrote:
charity wrote:
the road to hana wrote:I'm not sure which buddies you're talking about, but I expect they know that.
I knew a fair amount of Catholics when I was growing up. They had so accepted celibacy as the "superior" way to live, that thinking that Jesus would have not been celibate would have shocked their shoes off. If you think LDS are ignorant of their history, we are right in line with the way Catholics don't know their history.
Well, those are your Catholic buddies, not mine. Any church that would advocate celibacy as "superior" would become, by necessity, extinct.


Actually, they didn't become extinct. The celibacy was only for priests. RC doesn't prefer hereditary leadership as LDS do.

:-)

- Who are the absolute nuns?
- Whose father was a priest or whose mother was a nun. Or both.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hey Harmony,

their leader was killed
they were driven from their homes in the middle of the winter
they suffered deprivation and hunger, froze, lost their spouses and their children
they were driven into the wilderness
they died in huge numbers on the way
they were tricked into accepting the Abomination
their women shouldered the burden and the shame; their men shouldered the sin
they lost everything, including their dignity

Yeah, that sounds like they were really blessed.

Once they got rid of the Abomination, the blessings returned, they flourished, they prospered.

God will not be mocked.


I've been pondering this Harmony... I truly had not ever really thought of this, after all these years, this is a new idea to contemplate.

It would be MUCH easier to believe in the LDS church if one looked upon it from this perspective. It does seem to be very true that once the polygamy nonsense was removed, the church was blessed.

I do not believe in the LDS church however, I do believe that the result of goodness, is well, goodness. And the consequences of unhealthy behavior is unhealthiness.

:-)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
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