Infymus wrote:If Joseph Smith isn't required for the TWI, he certainly is required to get into Heaven. Mormon Doctrine states that Joseph Smith stands at gates of Heaven. You can't get passed him if you don't believe in him. Wait a minute, it isn't about Joseph Smith, it's about Jesus Christ right? No, it's all about Joseph Smith.
What is TWI?
As a non-native english speaker I always fight with abbreviations.
Temple Worthiness Interview?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Infymus wrote:If Joseph Smith isn't required for the TWI, he certainly is required to get into Heaven. Mormon Doctrine states that Joseph Smith stands at gates of Heaven. You can't get passed him if you don't believe in him.
Wait a minute, it isn't about Joseph Smith, it's about Jesus Christ right? No, it's all about Joseph Smith.
Ummm...no it doesn't. There's that whole Book of Mormon thing where it's said that Jesus judges us and that he employs no servant there. Non-crappy members know this stuff.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Infymus wrote:If Joseph Smith isn't required for the TWI, he certainly is required to get into Heaven. Mormon Doctrine states that Joseph Smith stands at gates of Heaven. You can't get passed him if you don't believe in him.
Wait a minute, it isn't about Joseph Smith, it's about Jesus Christ right? No, it's all about Joseph Smith.
Ummm...no it doesn't. There's that whole Book of Mormon thing where it's said that Jesus judges us and that he employs no servant there. Non-crappy members know this stuff.
Yeah, but that was written thousands of years ago. There has been a whole lotta continuing revelation since then. The Gospel Principles manual, which is much newer than the Book of Mormon, specifically states that the prophets and apostles of our dispensation will also judge us. So, according to the GP manual Jesus does in fact employ servants to judge us. What are you going to believe, a 2-thousand year old document, or the latest and greatest instructions from the correlation committee?
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
Scottie wrote:As I posted over there, I don't see the name Joseph Smith anywhere in the TR questions.
Did I look at an old online list? Did I miss it?
You missed it. #1 is the pertinent question: "Do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost; and do you have a firm testimony of the restored gospel?"
If the gospel has been restored, Joseph did it.
I disagree. This isn't asking specifically about Joseph Smith.
Asking about Joseph Smith plays into the whole worship of Joseph Smith by members. If the TR questions SPECIFICALLY asked about him by name, this would lend more towards Joseph Smith worship.
I see nothing wrong with asking if you have a testimony.
However, I thought MC (or was it Cinepro) had a great point. Wouldn't it be nice for those who are worthy, but don't believe in the church to be able to sit in on sealing ceremonies? Sure, you couldn't participate in any of them, but at least you could attend. Boy, the closed minded idiots over there rejected that notion post-haste.
There wouldn't be any "restored gospel" to ask about, if it wasn't for Joseph. The testimony of the restored gospel is a testimony of Joseph's prophethood.
Infymus wrote:If Joseph Smith isn't required for the TWI, he certainly is required to get into Heaven. Mormon Doctrine states that Joseph Smith stands at gates of Heaven. You can't get passed him if you don't believe in him.
Wait a minute, it isn't about Joseph Smith, it's about Jesus Christ right? No, it's all about Joseph Smith.
Ummm...no it doesn't. There's that whole Book of Mormon thing where it's said that Jesus judges us and that he employs no servant there. Non-crappy members know this stuff.
Yeah, but that was written thousands of years ago. There has been a whole lotta continuing revelation since then. The Gospel Principles manual, which is much newer than the Book of Mormon, specifically states that the prophets and apostles of our dispensation will also judge us. So, according to the GP manual Jesus does in fact employ servants to judge us. What are you going to believe, a 2-thousand year old document, or the latest and greatest instructions from the correlation committee?
Both actually. I suspect there is a preliminary judgment and Christ then does the Final Judgment and gets the final say.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Infymus wrote:If Joseph Smith isn't required for the TWI, he certainly is required to get into Heaven. Mormon Doctrine states that Joseph Smith stands at gates of Heaven. You can't get passed him if you don't believe in him.
Wait a minute, it isn't about Joseph Smith, it's about Jesus Christ right? No, it's all about Joseph Smith.
You cannot be a christian in the Mormon church without FIRST fully accepting Smith as a prophet. Jesus is second in line.
Three of the online missionaries have told me this to my question of:
Can I be a believer in Christ within the Mormon church with out accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet?
Looks like I have got to dig out the Mormon doctrine that states that no man can enter heaven without Joseph Smith's approval - and that he stands at the gates, in judgment.
Ok, here it is. Brigham Young, JOD Vol 7 - p289.
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith."
Sorry Nehor, this crappy non-member just told you that Joseph has the ultimate say, not Jesus Christ.
Infymus wrote:Looks like I have got to dig out the Mormon doctrine that states that no man can enter heaven without Joseph Smith's approval - and that he stands at the gates, in judgment.
Ok, here it is. Brigham Young, JOD Vol 7 - p289.
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith."
Sorry Nehor, this crappy non-member just told you that Joseph has the ultimate say, not Jesus Christ.
Then we go back to the whole argument of what is considered doctrine and what is not. The Journal of Discourses is not official Church canon.
Infymus wrote:Looks like I have got to dig out the Mormon doctrine that states that no man can enter heaven without Joseph Smith's approval - and that he stands at the gates, in judgment.
Ok, here it is. Brigham Young, JOD Vol 7 - p289.
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith."
Sorry Nehor, this crappy non-member just told you that Joseph has the ultimate say, not Jesus Christ.
Then we go back to the whole argument of what is considered doctrine and what is not. The Journal of Discourses is not official Church canon.
Right right. Because now that Brigham is dead - he was speaking as a man. How long before Gordie B. Stinky's words will be considered "not official church canon".
You Mormons. Cherry pick what you want, dump the rest. No wonder the rest of the world sees you as an insignificant Cult.
Maybe Liz you had better create the topic in your baby-crib "Celestial" forum where you can be protected against non canonical works.
Infymus wrote:Maybe Liz you had better create the topic in your baby-crib "Celestial" forum where you can be protected against non canonical works.
Get your boxers out of a knot, Infymus. I was playing devil's advocate.
You know I have a point, though. ;)
The apologetic stance is going to be that you are quoting from something that is not considered LDS Canon.
Now, to your point, most of us "older folks"....those of us who are 40+ and have been members of the Church all this time....were taught JoD principles that were incorporated as gospel fact. I'm not arguing that stance at all.