Mister Scratch wrote: So, what is the answer then? Would somebody like, say, Polygamy Porter or Steve Benson qualify as a "son of perdition"? Will these folks be cast down into Hell in order to suffer eternal torment?
No, in Mormon cosmology outer darkness is reserved for only those who had a sure knowledge of God's existence and still denied him. This cosmology is very universalistic in many respects. It has been quite reasonably speculated that even from this point, forgiveness is but a request away.
But what is the doctrinal or scriptural basis for this? And moreover, does this cosmology really do anything to pooh-pooh away the fact that every non-faithful LDS or non-LDS will spend time burning in hell?
It's all through the scriptures. The intense warnings regarding hell throughout all of our standard works. D&C 76 caps it off with some other sections providing information.
It does not pooh-pooh away that fact at all. It does make hell serve a purpose in preparing people for glory. As for making hell tolerable, it should be clear that the whole point is that it is not tolerable.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
My interpretation of D&C 76 has always been that the one thing that will condemn a person to Outer Darkness is apostasy. The assertion that this fate will only befall those who see HF or Jesus post-2nd coming seems hollow and vacuous to me. Moreover, I would imagine that, given the historical context, Joseph Smith, in this revelation, would clearly be referring to those who had betrayed him and left the Church. If Mormon cosmology is willing to grant a stint in hell just for lying, then you'd have to think that the far worse crime of apostasy would merit a far worse punishment, no?
Mister Scratch wrote: So, what is the answer then? Would somebody like, say, Polygamy Porter or Steve Benson qualify as a "son of perdition"? Will these folks be cast down into Hell in order to suffer eternal torment?
No, in Mormon cosmology outer darkness is reserved for only those who had a sure knowledge of God's existence and still denied him. This cosmology is very universalistic in many respects. It has been quite reasonably speculated that even from this point, forgiveness is but a request away.
But what is the doctrinal or scriptural basis for this? And moreover, does this cosmology really do anything to pooh-pooh away the fact that every non-faithful LDS or non-LDS will spend time burning in hell?
It's all through the scriptures. The intense warnings regarding hell throughout all of our standard works. D&C 76 caps it off with some other sections providing information.
Right: D&C 76 states very clearly that Outer Darkness will be doled out only to apostates. Right? What is the basis for any other interpretation?
I was always taught that apostates to the church were as good as going to Outer Darkness. I know many who were taught this, and many who were not. That's one problem I've had with the church. Teachings are not consistent, prophets and leaders will not clarify all issues, and the scriptures are fairly open to interpretation, which doesn't help when you're told to turn there. People in all ranks get different messages from the same verse!
Mister Scratch wrote: So, what is the answer then? Would somebody like, say, Polygamy Porter or Steve Benson qualify as a "son of perdition"? Will these folks be cast down into Hell in order to suffer eternal torment?
No, in Mormon cosmology outer darkness is reserved for only those who had a sure knowledge of God's existence and still denied him. This cosmology is very universalistic in many respects. It has been quite reasonably speculated that even from this point, forgiveness is but a request away.
But what is the doctrinal or scriptural basis for this? And moreover, does this cosmology really do anything to pooh-pooh away the fact that every non-faithful LDS or non-LDS will spend time burning in hell?
It's all through the scriptures. The intense warnings regarding hell throughout all of our standard works. D&C 76 caps it off with some other sections providing information.
Right: D&C 76 states very clearly that Outer Darkness will be doled out only to apostates. Right? What is the basis for any other interpretation?
Yes, but do all apostates qualify? Did they know his power and partake thereof? Have they crucified Jesus unto themselves? Some have, some haven't.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
unwell3398 wrote:I was always taught that apostates to the church were as good as going to Outer Darkness. I know many who were taught this, and many who were not. That's one problem I've had with the church. Teachings are not consistent, prophets and leaders will not clarify all issues, and the scriptures are fairly open to interpretation, which doesn't help when you're told to turn there. People in all ranks get different messages from the same verse!
That's what that handy Holy Ghost thing is for.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Mister Scratch wrote:There have been quite a few postings pertaining to this subject over on the aptly named MADboard as of late, and it makes me wonder: What, at heart, is the "punishment" belying Mormonism? That is, what is the grand, horrible fate that will befall you if you "go astray"? This seems to me one of the very peculiar and difficult-to-nail down facets of Church doctrine, and yet, in its own way, it seems every bit as essential as the doctrine of eternal progression. So, what is the punishment? Is there a hierarchy? Or is there no real "punishment?" As I see it, there seem to be several different forms of post-mortal "hell":
---Spirit Prison ---Outer Darkness (where the Sons of Perdition are sent) ---The Telestial Kingdom (for murderers and other sinners)
So, is it fair to say that there is indeed something resembling "hell" within Mormonism? And if so, what sins are grievous enough to earn you a ticket there?
I thought you were a Mormon Scratch? In that case, I would expect you to know the answer to this question, as its rudimentary doctrine for which there is no ambiguity or imprecision in our scriptures or the writings of the General Authorities.
Or is my first assumption mistaken?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie
yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
The Nehor wrote:Permanent hell is accessible only to those who deny the Holy Ghost.
So, are you saying that anyone who commits apostasy will be sent to "permanent hell"? That's interesting. I've always found that the majority of TBMs seem very unwilling to admit this.
That is what I get when being taught. That is one of the reasons why I am so scared to leave. Just incase it is true and I go to endless suffering. You should put an "other" choice on your list.