What is Mormonism's Ultimate Punishment?

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What is the Mormon version of "Hell"?

 
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_Doctor Steuss
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Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Mister Scratch wrote:Yes, of course---but who are the "sons of perdition"? My reading of the scripture is that the "sons of perdition" are apostates, or anyone who opposes the Church.... Nehor seems to think not, and (apparently) to think that banishment to Outer Darkness can only happen to very high-ranking GAs who've seen Jesus in the flesh.

I guess it depends on your definition of "apostates."

From my reading of scripture, it seems that the SoP:

Are those who remain "filthy in sin" after the Angelic Miles Davis gives his trumping (D&C 88:102, also 2 Nephi talks about this [14-16ish]). Also, those who follow Satan (whatever that means), 2 Peter 2:4 might apply... maybe. All in all, the best telling of "who" they are is probably D&C 76:31-32 which basically says they are the onces who have known G-d's power, and have partaken of His power, but then turn and deny and defy said power (whatever that may mean). It is also the peeps who hang out with the Holy G and then "deny" Mr. G and end up "crucifying" Christ "unto themselves" (D&C 76:34-36, and maybe Matthew 12:31-32).

So, we are left to wonder what clasifies someone as having:

1) Remained "filthy in sin."
2) Followed Mr. Scratch.
3) Known G-d's power, partaken of it, and then denied and defied it.
4) Denied the Holy Ghost and also crucified JC "unto themselves."
5) What would you do for a Klondike Bar.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_unwell3398
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Post by _unwell3398 »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:Yes, of course---but who are the "sons of perdition"? My reading of the scripture is that the "sons of perdition" are apostates, or anyone who opposes the Church.... Nehor seems to think not, and (apparently) to think that banishment to Outer Darkness can only happen to very high-ranking GAs who've seen Jesus in the flesh.

I guess it depends on your definition of "apostates."

From my reading of scripture, it seems that the SoP:

Are those who remain "filthy in sin" after the Angelic Miles Davis gives his trumping (D&C 88:102, also 2 Nephi talks about this [14-16ish]). Also, those who follow Satan (whatever that means), 2 Peter 2:4 might apply... maybe. All in all, the best telling of "who" they are is probably D&C 76:31-32 which basically says they are the onces who have known G-d's power, and have partaken of His power, but then turn and deny and defy said power (whatever that may mean). It is also the peeps who hang out with the Holy G and then "deny" Mr. G and end up "crucifying" Christ "unto themselves" (D&C 76:34-36, and maybe Matthew 12:31-32).

So, we are left to wonder what clasifies someone as having:

1) Remained "filthy in sin."
2) Followed Mr. Scratch.
3) Known G-d's power, partaken of it, and then denied and defied it.
4) Denied the Holy Ghost and also crucified JC "unto themselves."
5) What would you do for a Klondike Bar.


LOL. I think I kinda love you already, Dr. Steuss.
_Doctor Steuss
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Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:57 pm

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

unwell3398 wrote:LOL. I think I kinda love you already, Dr. Steuss.

You may want to put that affinity away... I'm Mormon.










And a Communist.








And mildly gay.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_unwell3398
_Emeritus
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:45 am

That's ok...

Post by _unwell3398 »

I'm not Mormon (anymore),

And I'm not a communist,

And I'm straight,

But love knows none of that =)
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: That's ok...

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Doctor Steuss wrote:[...]
3) Known G-d's power, partaken of it, and then denied and defied it.
4) Denied the Holy Ghost and also crucified JC "unto themselves."

Upon shallowly dwelling upon these a bit, they seem to suggest that a knowledge of the "truth" is potentially maintained, yet denied and defied (such as with the “third part”).


---------------
unwell3398 wrote:I'm not Mormon (anymore),

Groovy.

And I'm not a communist,

Bummer.

And I'm straight,

Major bummer.

But love knows none of that =)

‘Tis true, ‘tis true. Unfortunately, I think love does know garlic breath (I had some garlic bread at lunch).
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Jason Bourne
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Re: What is Mormonism's Ultimate Punishment?

Post by _Jason Bourne »


I thought you were a Mormon Scratch? In that case, I would expect you to know the answer to this question, as its rudimentary doctrine for which there is no ambiguity or imprecision in our scriptures or the writings of the General Authorities.

Or is my first assumption mistaken?


Certainly, I have my own ideas about how to answer the question. I was merely curious what others thought. Apparently, as per Nehor, there seems to be some confusion (or "waffling") on the issue of whether or not apostasy merits Outer Darkness. The fact that no one seems willing to provide a straight, scripturally/doctrinally-supported answer (aside from Jason's D&C citation) seems to suggest that there is, indeed, some "confusion"---perhaps not in the scriptures themselves, but amongst the rank-and-file.

My .02 is that Nehor's interpretation is the stereotypically watered down TBM reading of that D&C passage. TBMs are terrified at the thought that non-LDS---and in particular prospective converts---might learn about this "roach motel" aspect of Mormonism: I.e., once you're in, you either have to stay in, or suffer the absolutely worst version of hell imagninable. No doubt the Church's PR folks are extremely worried that non-LDS might find out that they will all be headed to suffer the supreme torments of temporary hell.


The bottom line is that "hell" is another part of LDS theology that most TBMs are utterly embarrassed about. This is perhaps the apotheosis of the "meat" that is supposed to be kept away from investigators and non-Mormons.
[/quote]


Well let's look at the passage:
D&C 76:30-39

30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.


I guess it depends on how one interprets the bolded parts. What does it mean to know his power, be a partakers and then to be overcome by the devil? What does it mean to deny the spirit after one receives it and crucify Christ unto ones self. Does apostasy meant that?

I have never understood it as such nor have I ever been taught that. I have been taught that this will be very limited and that one must have a perfect knowledge of Christ and reject him for this to apply. I do recall one quite somewhere in the 19th century that indicated some of those involved in the foundations of the LDS Church that left might be in this situation.

However, I think if you read about those who end up in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms you can conclude that it is not as rash as you seem to depict it. The terrestrial kingdom receives those who had a testimony but were not valiant in it. That is perhaps members who were not valiant or turned away. The telestial has murderers and thieves and so on. It seems that apostates at worst would be there.

[/quote]
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
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Re: What is Mormonism's Ultimate Punishment?

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Well let's look at the passage:
D&C 76:30-39

30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.


I guess it depends on how one interprets the bolded parts. What does it mean to know his power, be a partakers and then to be overcome by the devil? What does it mean to deny the spirit after one receives it and crucify Christ unto ones self. Does apostasy meant that?


Yes. See, I think that "to know his power"= to have been "inducted" into the Church. (I equate the verb "partake" with---naturally---the sacrament, and so I would think that's what's being referred to here, at least in part.) To "deny the spirit" means to deny the Holy Ghost following the laying on of hands post-baptism.

I have never understood it as such nor have I ever been taught that. I have been taught that this will be very limited and that one must have a perfect knowledge of Christ and reject him for this to apply.


I was taught this too. However, I think that particular interpretation is incorrect, and is not supported by the extant evidence.

I do recall one quite somewhere in the 19th century that indicated some of those involved in the foundations of the LDS Church that left might be in this situation.

However, I think if you read about those who end up in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms you can conclude that it is not as rash as you seem to depict it.


What's not "as rash"? Outer Darkness? Or the requirements for being sent there?

The terrestrial kingdom receives those who had a testimony but were not valiant in it. That is perhaps members who were not valiant or turned away. The telestial has murderers and thieves and so on. It seems that apostates at worst would be there.



Well, I think that's why a distinction has been made between the Telestial Kingdom and Outer Darkness: to help rank the various offenses against God. Yes, murder is pretty darn bad, but apostasy is even worse. Let's not forget that both murder and apostasy were among the few sins that could merit Blood Atonement. So, from a practical, 19th century LDS standpoint, murder and apostasy are equivalent in gravity. When you add in this passage from D&C, I think you'd have to conclude that, yes, garden-variety apostasy as we understand it (such as is exhibited daily on RfM and elsewhere) will merit eternal torment in Outer Darkness.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

So what is to say that was was being done before was wrong...or right? Or what is now being done today is wrong or right? People died for what they believed in back in the day, yet today many doctrines and teachings have been altered or discarded. Doctrines, even according to Joseph Smith, were considered competely true and everlasting. So when they get changed....red flags go up.



Which true and everlasting doctrines have been discarded?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I was told that if I didn't simply accept the words of the leaders, on a local and top level, that I would be shunned and disciplined. I wasn't even questioning at the time; I simply trying to figure out what was meant especially when it did not coincide with something else I had been taught.



Oh oh...here come the stories again.

Talk about red flags.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

You, Nehor, are missing the point. The original topic was asking what everyone thinks or believes. Everyone has not gotten "dumber" as you oh so eloquently accused, but we have ALL been taught different things over our lives on this matter. Your opinion is something different than what my father read to me in a book written by...oh, who was it...I THINK it was David O. McKay. Anyway, that wasn't the point. There is NO official statement on who goes to hell or not, and what happens to apostates. I've heard numerous opinions, but no clarification on the doctrine.


Pure unexpurgated pap. End of story. Nobody has been taught anything other than what's been in the D&C, the Gospel Doctrine manuals, Seminary manuals, Institute manuals, Priesthood manuals, and Relief Society manuals, and any number of other Church publications. The clear doctrines have been taught by the Brethren since the very beginning. We know what "Hell" is, and, in basic outline, what the requirements are for being "ordained unto this condemnation". There is no ambiguity about this teaching, and you're continual insistence that there is is beginning to seem a bit tendentious.

Since you don't really have an issue or argument at all, why not just cut this pose short and get to the real agenda?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
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