Are these the last days?

[_ktallamigo]

It is almost a year to the day that I began my quest to find out if the church was really true. Some personal problems in my life led me to question my beliefs. I have always been a life-long member of “the church,” a TBM chapel Mormon; in fact my ancestors are all Mormon pioneers that came across the plains and settled the Salt Lake Valley. I was/am a “good” Mormon, kept all the rules, and even served a mission in Peru when I was young. Two of the most important unofficial rules of Mormonism that I’d always kept were (1) don’t read uncensored Mormon history and (2) don’t read literature critical of the church. A year ago I broke these two rules and began a flurry of secret reading that lasted for many months. I knew when I started this that once I walked down that road I could never go back and unlearn what I was about to learn. But I decided to go forward anyway.

I read some excellent books: The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power; by D. Michael Quinn; No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie; Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon by (several authors, I can’t remember their names) which promotes the theory of Solomon Spalding authorship of the Book of Mormon; An Insider’s View of Mormon History by Grant Palmer; Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Will Bagley; Forgotten Kingdom: The Mormon Theocracy in the American West by David Bigler, Emma Smith: Mormon Enigma, and I’ve got a few others hidden somewhere that I haven’t had the chance to look at. I’ve learned a lot from this board. I’ve even read some of the Tanners’ newsletters and visited their bookstore. I had to do all this reading in secret, of course, because almost every significant person in my life is a Mormon.

The result of all this reading is, of course, that I no longer believe in the Mormon church, no longer believe that Joseph Smith or Brigham Young were prophets, no longer believe in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and I learned that the Pearl of Great Price is an absolute fraud. So now I feel like a complete and total idiot that I actually believed in these things for my entire life. I never learned about any controversial aspects of Mormon history, such as that Joseph Smith was a treasure hunter and con man, nor about the DNA research done on Native Americans, nor the lack of supporting archeological evidence for the Book of Mormon, nor that Joseph Smith’s translation of the Egyptian Papyri (supposedly the Book of Abraham) was actually a funerary scroll from the Egyptian book of breathings. I was never told about Joseph Smith’s polygamy, or how he entered into polyandrous relationships, and married 14 and 15 year old girls (and slept with them). And, of course, inside the church you are considered an evil person if you investigate or talk about these things. In fact, you can get excommunicated for simply telling other people about these things. I’d never heard about blood atonement, or the fact that early leaders had many people killed. I’d never heard that the problems the Mormons encountered in Missouri and Illinois were in large part because of stupid things the Mormons either said or did.

In fact, I’m not even sure if I believe in God anymore. And that is sad, because a belief in God would really be helpful to me at this point in my life. I just don’t know what I believe in anymore. I'm a very confused person.

But it is hard to rid one's self of a lifetime’s worth of programming and beliefs. Mormonism is a whole world view. I have always viewed the events and changes in the world with the idea that these are the last days, and viewed the earthquakes, wars, global warming, tsunamis, tornadoes, rising crime rates, perceived increase in immorality, rising divorce rates – as evidence that these are indeed the last days and signs of Christ’s second coming.

Surely during my lifetime, from the radical sixties to the violent wars of the present – the world seems to be following the course outlined in the Bible as “the last days.”

What do you all think? Are these the last days? Is it just coincidence? How does one understand these things outside of the prism of Christianity, or Mormonism? Are they signs of the times?

[_Gadianton]

No. I mean, there have been wars and fighting throughout history. It's not too hard to predict based on the ever brutal nature of humans that bad times are always lurking around the corner. Further, most of the Bible prophecies about the "last days" are merely wrongly interpreted by modern people as pertaining to our time period.

[Guest]

Ktalmiamigo,

I feel much of your pain. I hope for the best for you.

So far as Jesus returning. Who cares?

I digress.

Jesus always said "I come quickly". Well, he hasn't come yet - another misunderstanding that is of course, my fault, not his.

I conjured up the notion as a TBM that I am more likely to die before he returns to earth. Odds are, death will take me like most as a "thief in the night". What's the difference whether I go see Him or he comes to see me - it's a meeting, right?

As an ex-TBM, I don't care. Do I want to be around if He does? No. Why would I want to be a witness to blood, carnage and come up'ns?

Just think of what a wonderful world it would be if He (and God) decided to show a little more interest than just laying waste every thousand or so years? With a little positive influence from the right deity, people are basically good and the world would be a nicer place.

[_Sethbag]

People have been saying it's the last days since someone first invented the concept of "last days". From what I understand, the early Christians right after the time of Christ thought they were living in the last days, and it basically hasn't stopped since.

I know Joseph Smith thought he was living in the last days (or at least talked like he did). I think every generation of Mormons that there's been has thought this. I learned when I was young that these were the last days and we were Saturday's Warriors (the play was popular at the time), saved to come forth in this generation because of how uber we were in the spirit world, and how God was counting on us.

Now I don't believe in "last days" as in "days before Jesus Christ comes back". I don't think he's coming back, assuming he even lived in the first place. I think that if there was a Jesus, he was a man like anyone else, and the cult of personality grew up around this man at some subsequent time.

I do believe in "last days" in the sense that I think the future of humanity is bleak. Nuclear weapons were invented, and they can't be un-invented. The US and the USSR managed to avoid blowing ourselves all to hell because our guys, and the Russians, in the end didn't want to die and blow up the world. Now we've got religious fanatics in the world who would gladly not only push the button if they could, but in fact would strap themselves to the bomb and drive it straight into the heart of a major city to do so, if they could.

We've got religious whackos running around blowing people up for Allah, or trying to foment a war between the Israelis and the Arabs so that they can blow up the Al Aqsa mosque and rebuild a jewish temple there, so that Jesus can come back again. I honestly don't think that humanity will outlive the 21st century. Someone's going to get a hold of the bomb and use it, and all hell will break loose.

[_ludwigm]

The bomb is not necessary.

The environment pollution is good enough and can be more painful. I prefer this way.

[_Chap]

... I have always been a life-long member of “the church,” a TBM chapel Mormon; in fact my ancestors are all Mormon pioneers that came across the plains and settled the Salt Lake Valley. I was/am a “good” Mormon, kept all the rules, and even served a mission in Peru when I was young. [...] I no longer believe in the Mormon church, no longer believe that Joseph Smith or Brigham Young were prophets, no longer believe in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and I learned that the Pearl of Great Price is an absolute fraud. So now I feel like a complete and total idiot that I actually believed in these things for my entire life.

Your cooky-cutter exit story is profoundly unconvincing. You left because you wanted to sin. You never had a testimony. You are a moral spongecake. You should have studied more. You should have studied less.

You were obviously never a member of the Church.

I get a 'Paul H. Dunn' feeling about you.

You do not exist. (No-one EVER leaves the CoJCoLDS)

[I thought I'd get that little rite of passage over with before the discussion starts, since our loyal TBMs are busy elsewhere at the moment]

Apart from that, welcome to the board.

[_ludwigm]

... I no longer believe in the Mormon church ...

... You should have studied less ...

One honest opinion. Congratulations!

[_Yoda]

... I have always been a life-long member of “the church,” a TBM chapel Mormon; in fact my ancestors are all Mormon pioneers that came across the plains and settled the Salt Lake Valley. I was/am a “good” Mormon, kept all the rules, and even served a mission in Peru when I was young. [...] I no longer believe in the Mormon church, no longer believe that Joseph Smith or Brigham Young were prophets, no longer believe in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and I learned that the Pearl of Great Price is an absolute fraud. So now I feel like a complete and total idiot that I actually believed in these things for my entire life.

Your cooky-cutter exit story is profoundly unconvincing. You left because you wanted to sin. You never had a testimony. You are a moral spongecake. You should have studied more. You should have studied less.

You were obviously never a member of the Church.

I get a 'Paul H. Dunn' feeling about you.

You do not exist. (No-one EVER leaves the CoJCoLDS)

[I thought I'd get that little rite of passage over with before the discussion starts, since our loyal TBMs are busy elsewhere at the moment]

Apart from that, welcome to the board.

LOL! In case you missed it, Chap WAS kidding! :)

Thanks, Chap, for beating Cogs, Bob, and the ruder TBM's to the punch. You hear that guys? The retribution has been taken care of. Don't bother!

Seriously, kt, welcome to the board! :)

I understand your confusion. I'm facing some of it myself. I have been a member all my life, but have always struggled with polygamy, and other Church tenets that have just never "added up" to me.

Right now, I am still active, and hold a calling...play the piano for Primary. I attend Church and hold callings on terms that work for me, and now that I'm over 40, I have finally allowed myself to not feel guilty about not being able to be "Molly Mormon" or the super Mom, which is something I could have never done, anyway. LOL

I'll comment more on the topic a little later, but again, welcome to the board.

;)

[_ludwigm]

LOL! In case you missed it, Chap WAS kidding! :)

I did!

These damned internet forums, one can not see the eyes of the speaker ...

[_Inconceivable]

Ktalamigo,

One more note. As a TBM, I didn't really care when Jesus came either.

After studying 1 Corinthians 13, Ether 12 and Moroni 7, I drew the conclusion that my personal preparation was of far greater import than the singular event.

Let's make believe for a moment. Even though Moroni & Mormon are fictional characters, there is some wisdom here. If/when Jesus comes, how will you recognize him? Well, we recognize Him by who we've become - if we have become like Him. We will see him as He is. According to these guys, the developing of Christlike attributes (charity) is the only way we will know the true savior of the world - and know the many imposters when they present themselves.

(on a side note, this is why I think "Ch#$%ity's" screename is an abomination. To me, it's like she is calling herself the true Savior. And obviously, she has little understanding of what she has done)