What is Mormonism's Ultimate Punishment?

[_Jason Bourne]

Ok

here you go

From the Book Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith Page 358:

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him.12 He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The quote be SWK is from MoF page 123 and I have edited out commentary from the source I got it from. My apologies. In my rush I did not notice it was not all from him:

"The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin" (The Miracle o Forgiveness, p.123)"

“Lesson 20: The Kingdoms of Glory,” Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, 110

2. Perdition

Teach and discuss D&C 76:25–39, 44–49. Begin by writing Perdition on the chalkboard. Explain that the word perdition refers to a state of loss and destruction rather than a kingdom of glory. Those who experience this are called “sons of perdition” because they follow Satan, who is called Perdition (D&C 76:25–26, 31–32). Be sure to keep this discussion brief, avoiding speculation and leaving sufficient time to discuss the celestial kingdom later in the lesson. As with other subjects, focus only on what has been taught in the scriptures and by latter-day prophets.

*

• When Lucifer rebelled in the Council in Heaven, he was thrust down to earth (Revelation 12:7–9; D&C 29:36–37; 76:25–28; Moses 4:1–3). What did he begin to do when he was cast out? (See D&C 76:29; Moses 4:4.) What can we do to win the war against Satan in our lives? (For some answers to this question, see 1 Nephi 14:14; D&C 10:5; 27:15–18.)
*

• What did the Lord reveal about the suffering of the sons of perdition? (See D&C 76:32–34, 36–38, 44–49.) Why are sons of perdition condemned to experience such great suffering? (See D&C 76:30–31, 35. For an explanation of what it means to deny the Holy Ghost, see the following quotation.)
o

The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 358).

Cecil O. Samuelson Jr., “Words of Jesus: Forgiveness,” Ensign, Feb 2003, 48

All Sins but One

The Savior was very clear that, conditioned on repentance, all of our sins can be forgiven through His sacred and atoning sacrifice except for what He called “blasphemy against the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 12:31; see also Mark 3:28–29). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught on this subject: “Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him.” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (1976), 358.

[_Mister Scratch]

Jason,

Thank you for taking the time to supply the references. There were a couple of things in the expanded text that caught my attention:

Ok

here you go

[Snip!]

The quote be SWK is from MoF page 123 and I have edited out commentary from the source I got it from. My apologies. In my rush I did not notice it was not all from him:

"The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin" (The Miracle o Forgiveness, p.123)"

“Lesson 20: The Kingdoms of Glory,” Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, 110

2. Perdition

Teach and discuss D&C 76:25–39, 44–49. Begin by writing Perdition on the chalkboard. Explain that the word perdition refers to a state of loss and destruction rather than a kingdom of glory. Those who experience this are called “sons of perdition” because they follow Satan, who is called Perdition (D&C 76:25–26, 31–32). Be sure to keep this discussion brief, avoiding speculation and leaving sufficient time to discuss the celestial kingdom later in the lesson. As with other subjects, focus only on what has been taught in the scriptures and by latter-day prophets.

(bold emphasis added)

I believe that this is offers further support for my thesis. Why should there be any problem with "speculation"---or, more to the point, with accurately interpreting the scripture???

This next bit, obviously written by a CES employee, and thus not on a par with canonized scripture such as D&C 76, is intriguing:

• What did the Lord reveal about the suffering of the sons of perdition? (See D&C 76:32–34, 36–38, 44–49.) Why are sons of perdition condemned to experience such great suffering? (See D&C 76:30–31, 35. For an explanation of what it means to deny the Holy Ghost, see the following quotation.)

(emphasis added)

I think it's telling that even this CES author seems worried/unsure of how to interpret the passage. Which, of course, brings us back to Joseph Smith:

The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 358).

I'm still sort of curious about the original source---i.e., where did Joseph Smith say this? (I cannot recall having ever read the original text of this.) Not in the canonized scriptures, certainly. D&C 76, as you'll recall, does not mention the Holy Ghost; rather, it speaks of denying the Son. I wonder if this particular CES author has simply muddied the waters with additional confusion. Neither the quoted Joseph Smith text, nor the manual text do any real interpretation of the scripture, which really ought to be our primary object of study. What's more, this does nothing to really oppose or undo my reading. All of the things Joseph Smith is describing can, and (I would argue) routinely *do* happen to the average, rank-and-file member. Go ahead: just ask Coggins or Nehor if they've experience this "opening of the heavens," as it were. Nehor has said repeatedly that he has had contact with Jesus. I therefore submit that if Nehor were ever to leave the Church, and fail to ever repent, he would wind up in Outer Darkness.

[_Coggins7]

So, in other words, the entire thing is really quite clear: one must have, not only a testimony, but a rather high, if unspecified, level of knowledge and spiritual experience to commit the sin against the Holy Ghost. "Falling away", form the Church, apostatizing, or becoming an exmo, is not a sufficient condition.

[_Mister Scratch]

So, in other words, the entire thing is really quite clear: one must have, not only a testimony, but a rather high, if unspecified, level of knowledge and spiritual experience to commit the sin against the Holy Ghost. "Falling away", form the Church, apostatizing, or becoming an exmo, is not a sufficient condition.

Pretty poor logic here. Further, for this to be true, it would involve undermining the testimonies of millions of faithful Saints. I submit that *ALL* rank-and-file LDS in good standing believe, with all their hearts and souls, that they know the Church is true, and that, indeed, the "heavens have been opened for them." What more evidence would have to be presented to the average Saint for there to be a risk of Outer Darkness? Epistemologically speaking, there is no difference. The typical faithful Saint believes just the same, regardless of whether s/he has seen Christ in the flesh.

Face it: Garden variety apostasy, as per D&C 76, merits Outer Darkness. This is the most correct interpretation of that passage.

[_harmony]

So, in other words, the entire thing is really quite clear: one must have, not only a testimony, but a rather high, if unspecified, level of knowledge and spiritual experience to commit the sin against the Holy Ghost. "Falling away", form the Church, apostatizing, or becoming an exmo, is not a sufficient condition.

Pretty poor logic here. Further, for this to be true, it would involve undermining the testimonies of millions of faithful Saints. I submit that *ALL* rank-and-file LDS in good standing believe, with all their hearts and souls, that they know the Church is true, and that, indeed, the "heavens have been opened for them." What more evidence would have to be presented to the average Saint for there to be a risk of Outer Darkness? Epistemologically speaking, there is no difference. The typical faithful Saint believes just the same, regardless of whether s/he has seen Christ in the flesh.

Face it: Garden variety apostasy, as per D&C 76, merits Outer Darkness. This is the most correct interpretation of that passage.

I think you have to have a personal visit from Christ and then deny it, in order to qualify for Outer Darkness. And I think the only one since 1820 who has qualified is Joseph Smith.

God will not be mocked.

[_Jason Bourne]

Pretty poor logic here. Further, for this to be true, it would involve undermining the testimonies of millions of faithful Saints. I submit that *ALL* rank-and-file LDS in good standing believe, with all their hearts and souls, that they know the Church is true, and that, indeed, the "heavens have been opened for them." What more evidence would have to be presented to the average Saint for there to be a risk of Outer Darkness? Epistemologically speaking, there is no difference. The typical faithful Saint believes just the same, regardless of whether s/he has seen Christ in the flesh.

Face it: Garden variety apostasy, as per D&C 76, merits Outer Darkness. This is the most correct interpretation of that passage.

There are a couple of problems here.

First we have the statement by Joseph Smith himself. I pulled it out of JFSs Teachings of the Prophet but it comes from the Documentive History of the Church. LDS have always understood that to merit outer darkness one must deny the Holy Ghost-which is the only unforgivable sin. So you must overturn what the man who promulgated the revelation your are discussing. Why should we believe you over him?

Next, it is pretty clear, and I have shown it by quotes from at least two leaders and one lesson manual, and there are many other such statements, that all the leaders of the LDS Church pretty much understand it the way Joseph Smith explained it and the way I am arguing here.

Last of all it is clear almost all members understand it this way as well. So if you are right and everyone else wrong the effectiveness of this doctrine in deterring apostasy is fairly ineffective. Nobody understands it this way including the prophet who originated the doctrine.

I think you lose on this one my friend.

[_Jason Bourne]

I think you have to have a personal visit from Christ and then deny it, in order to qualify for Outer Darkness. And I think the only one since 1820 who has qualified is Joseph Smith.

God will not be mocked.

Joseph Smith may have done some things wrong but the man never denied his testimony.

[_antishock8]

God will not be mocked.

Really? God will not be mocked? Really?

Me: Hey God!

God: Yes, my son?

Me: I see London, I see France, I see God's underpants! *thbbt!!*

[Mod Scottie Note: Inappropriate image deleted.]

[_harmony]

God will not be mocked.

Really? God will not be mocked? Really?

You might want to get with the program, anti. My comment refers to the Abomination and nothing else.

[Dr. Sunstoned]

Pretty poor logic here. Further, for this to be true, it would involve undermining the testimonies of millions of faithful Saints. I submit that *ALL* rank-and-file LDS in good standing believe, with all their hearts and souls, that they know the Church is true, and that, indeed, the "heavens have been opened for them." What more evidence would have to be presented to the average Saint for there to be a risk of Outer Darkness? Epistemologically speaking, there is no difference. The typical faithful Saint believes just the same, regardless of whether s/he has seen Christ in the flesh.

Face it: Garden variety apostasy, as per D&C 76, merits Outer Darkness. This is the most correct interpretation of that passage.

This is so sadly, pathetically, and yet, quite easily predictable of you Mr. Scratch. You create controversies and confusion regarding doctrines and teachings in the Church for which there is clear and long settled understanding among the General Authorities and the Saints, broadly speaking, and you are able to do it even when clear and unambiguous scriputural passages, confirmed and elucidated by the Brethren throughout the history of the Church, provide the settled perspective and context.

There is nothing, nothing in Church doctrine, counsel, or practice regarding members who simply fall away and become inactive, that would indicate so much as the Telestial Kingdom, let alone outer darkness. Falling away, and inactivity certainly be accounted for in our next estate, but many who fall away, lapses into inactiviy and unconcern with the Churh directly, have by no means necessarily completely lost their testimonies, or would deny the spiritual experiences they have had. Further, members generally, including active members, do not all have the same degree of testimony. Many are riding on intellectual, psychological, or cultural testimony; they like the Church's emphasis on family and family values, its unique historical and theological vision, etc, but have not necessarily received the testimony of the Holy Ghost which is the spirit of prophecy. They have not received direct revelation of the claims of the Gospel and of Joseph.

Apostasy, in the senses meant by Joseph Smith and as articulated in the D&C, is not simply removal from activity because of the "cares of the world", or inactivity due to personal problems or disinterest in the Church (again, a "cares of the world thing"), but a flat denial, after having had greater than what would be considered normative, spiritual experiences and revelations such that one was, to a great extent, walking as much by sight as by faith. Whether one would have actually seen Jesus Christ (although this is a goal held out by the scriptures and promised to those who, in mortality, reach a point in their spiritual maturity where this becomes the next step in that development), I don't know, but one would have had visions and revelations opened to one's mind and experience that could not possibly be denied without an overt act of something near pure hubris.

Even the early witnesses who left the Church because of disaffection with Joseph, never denied their testimonies of the Book of Mormon, or, for that matter, of Joseph's prophetic gift. Lucifer became Satan because he denied the truth in the face of the obvious reality. Given my testimony, if I actually apostatized and turned against the Church, while I would be found severely wanting at the judgment seat of Christ, I would not likely be found to be a Son of Perdition. I may be wrong, given what I perceive to be the actual depth of that testimony, but I don't think I have received anything near to what Joseph Smith implies is required in this life to break with reality to the degree that is implied by this teaching.

In other words, even if I had seen the golden plates, spoken with Moroni, and had open visions of the spirit world, I could "fall away" and still not commit the sin against the Holy Ghost. That involves, not just separation from the Church, for whatever personal reason, but openly denying realities that one knows very well to be true in an very intimate way. Indeed, the empirical evidence and "proof" that the secularists around here are always howling about would, for such a person, be a reality; they would have personal, empirical, factual proof of the realities taught by the Gospel and Church, and then they would have to deny that, as well as their testimony; they would have to, for personal reasons, deny factual realities they knew very well, not as a matter of faith but as a matter of direct experience, were true.

The one caveat here would be the teaching that the testimony of the Holy Ghost is actually a deeper, more penetrating, and more decisive witness than actually seeing angels or visions. If would then be the case that perhaps it is the deeper and more intense manifestations of the spirit, combined with actual experience, that is the salient factor. Whatever the case, every GA of which I'm aware, from Joseph Smith to McConkie, who have dealt with the doctrine, have been clear that a special and unique level of spiritual insight is necessary to commit this sin, something that is going to be beyond most LDS faithful in this life.