Are these the last days?

[_William Schryver]

I first read Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon when I was eighteen years old. At the time, I was living away from home (and had been for over a year) and no one expected that I, of all people, would go on a mission. I had no family or peer pressure to be an active Mormon at all, and in many ways I was quite comfortable living in the Avenues district in SLC and pursuing the hedonistic lifestyle of a young-adult male in the late 1970s. After reading Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon, I decided maybe it was time I read The Book of Mormon, which I then did – twice in a month. Within a year I was wearing a white shirt, tie, and black name badge and wandering the streets of various cities in Italy, talking with anyone who would listen.

Since then, I have continued my study of everything that is out there. I have read all of Quinn’s stuff, Fawn Brodie’s Joseph Smith “biography,” Grant Palmer’s “expose,” and Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, which I’ve read three times (I quite like it.) I haven’t bothered with Bagley’s Blood of the Prophets. I already know that Bagley is a blithering idiot and don’t need my conclusion reinforced by subjecting myself to his axe-grinding tome. Juanita Brooks could teach Will a lesson or two. I’ve read Vogel and the various essays assembled by him and Metcalfe in American Apocrypha and New Approaches to the Book of Mormon. I’ve been frequenting the online message boards for a long time now. Anyway, you get the idea: the bottom line is that I’m sure I’ve been thoroughly exposed to everything that is out there of a critical nature against the church founded by Joseph Smith.

And the result of all this reading is, of course, that I continue to believe in the restored gospel; I believe that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were inspired prophets; I believe the Book of Mormon is everything it claims to be; that the book of Doctrine and Covenants contains many powerful and inspired revelations, and I regard the books of Moses and Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price as two of the most profound works of scripture ever bestowed upon mankind.

I suppose it goes without saying that I also perceive that we are living in the “last days.” Indeed, I remain quite convinced that I shall yet live to see the current world end and a new one take its place, led from Zion and Jerusalem by none other than the resurrected Jesus Christ. But, should it occur in my lifetime or not, I am convinced it will happen, and quite shortly, when viewed from the perspective of cosmic time.

Now isn’t it strange how two people can see the same things and reach entirely opposite conclusions?

[_Some Schmo]

And the result of all this reading is, of course, that I continue to believe in the restored gospel; I believe that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were inspired prophets; I believe the Book of Mormon is everything it claims to be; that the book of Doctrine and Covenants contains many powerful and inspired revelations, and I regard the books of Moses and Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price as two of the most profound works of scripture ever bestowed upon mankind.

I suppose it goes without saying that I also perceive that we are living in the “last days.” Indeed, I remain quite convinced that I shall yet live to see the current world end and a new one take its place, led from Zion and Jerusalem by none other than the resurrected Jesus Christ. But, should it occur in my lifetime or not, I am convinced it will happen, and quite shortly, when viewed from the perspective of cosmic time.

Now isn’t it strange how two people can see the same things and reach entirely opposite conclusions?

Not really. Some people just know how to read with an open mind better than others. Some people think truth is more important than comfort or their personal investment in a belief system; some don't.

It's not strange in the least, actually.

[_Who Knows]

...I remain quite convinced that I shall yet live to see the current world end and a new one take its place...

The 'saints' have been saying that since the 1830s. Everyone likes to think they're special, i suppose.

[_Dr. Shades]

I already know that Bagley is a blithering idiot and don’t need my conclusion reinforced by subjecting myself to his axe-grinding tome.

In other words, why actually read a book when your mind is already made up about it?

[_GoodK]

One of my favorite LDS urban legends is the story of the member that's Patriarchal blessing said Christ would return in their lifetime.

The sky has been falling for a long time, which is why religion can be so dangerous.

I mean, is there anything more dangerous than a large group of humans looking forward to its destruction?

Sam Harris talked about those who would see the "silver lining in the mushroom cloud" in one of his books.

[_Chap]

I first read Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon when I was eighteen years old. At the time, I was living away from home (and had been for over a year) and no one expected that I, of all people, would go on a mission. I had no family or peer pressure to be an active Mormon at all, and in many ways I was quite comfortable living in the Avenues district in SLC and pursuing the hedonistic lifestyle of a young-adult male in the late 1970s. After reading Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon, I decided maybe it was time I read The Book of Mormon, which I then did – twice in a month. Within a year I was wearing a white shirt, tie, and black name badge and wandering the streets of various cities in Italy, talking with anyone who would listen.

Since then, I have continued my study of everything that is out there. I have read all of Quinn’s stuff, Fawn Brodie’s Joseph Smith “biography,” Grant Palmer’s “expose,” and Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, which I’ve read three times (I quite like it.) I haven’t bothered with Bagley’s Blood of the Prophets. I already know that Bagley is a blithering idiot and don’t need my conclusion reinforced by subjecting myself to his axe-grinding tome. Juanita Brooks could teach Will a lesson or two. I’ve read Vogel and the various essays assembled by him and Metcalfe in American Apocrypha and New Approaches to the Book of Mormon. I’ve been frequenting the online message boards for a long time now. Anyway, you get the idea: the bottom line is that I’m sure I’ve been thoroughly exposed to everything that is out there of a critical nature against the church founded by Joseph Smith.

And the result of all this reading is, of course, that I continue to believe in the restored gospel; I believe that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were inspired prophets; I believe the Book of Mormon is everything it claims to be; that the book of Doctrine and Covenants contains many powerful and inspired revelations, and I regard the books of Moses and Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price as two of the most profound works of scripture ever bestowed upon mankind.

I suppose it goes without saying that I also perceive that we are living in the “last days.” Indeed, I remain quite convinced that I shall yet live to see the current world end and a new one take its place, led from Zion and Jerusalem by none other than the resurrected Jesus Christ. But, should it occur in my lifetime or not, I am convinced it will happen, and quite shortly, when viewed from the perspective of cosmic time.

Now isn’t it strange how two people can see the same things and reach entirely opposite conclusions?

Those of us who have watched Schryver discussing a number of specific issues about such matters as Book of Mormon historicity, the relations (or rather lack of them) between the Book of Abraham and the original papyri etc. etc. have found that his mind seems to be coated in a kind of teflon-like substance from which fact after fact, and lost argument after lost argument simply slide to the ground without ever making any impression on his convictions.

I believe that this state is called technically 'Having a Testimony'.

Lucky old ktallamigo has lost hers, and suddenly the world looks a different place, one in which normal practical judgements can be made like

"Sure, you can't totally rule out the very very remote possibility that sometime in the future, somewhere in the Western hemisphere, someone will dig up a sign that says "Welcome to Zarahemla" in a script related in some way to Egyptian. But I am 99.9% sure that this is all just a made-up story. And now I am going to get on with the rest of my life on that basis."

I suspect that when you have reached that point, you never go back. And conversely, the more often and the more publicly you repeat your commitment to affirming the historicity of the Book of Mormon and the rest of it, the thicker the teflon gets.

[_Inconceivable]

But, should it occur in my lifetime or not, I am convinced it will happen, and quite shortly, when viewed from the perspective of cosmic time.

Yeah. Cosmic time. Whatever.

"Behold, I come quickly, cosmically speaking.."

I can appreciate that this is the only way you can still wrap your head around something that just keeps not happening.

Maybe perfection doesn't include having an accurate command of all the languages One gives to His planet.

[_asbestosman]

I do believe in "last days" in the sense that I think the future of humanity is bleak. Nuclear weapons were invented, and they can't be un-invented. The US and the USSR managed to avoid blowing ourselves all to hell because our guys, and the Russians, in the end didn't want to die and blow up the world. Now we've got religious fanatics in the world who would gladly not only push the button if they could, but in fact would strap themselves to the bomb and drive it straight into the heart of a major city to do so, if they could.

We've got religious whackos running around blowing people up for Allah, or trying to foment a war between the Israelis and the Arabs so that they can blow up the Al Aqsa mosque and rebuild a jewish temple there, so that Jesus can come back again. I honestly don't think that humanity will outlive the 21st century. Someone's going to get a hold of the bomb and use it, and all hell will break loose.

I also think that's how the last days are going to play out. I just happen to believe that Jesus will come at the end. I also believe that I will die before He returns. I've long thought that I would not be able to survive the next world war. Even so, I continue planning for retirement etc. instead of stockpiling supplies. Maybe I'm insane.

[_ludwigm]

I do believe in "last days" in the sense that I think the future of humanity is bleak. Nuclear weapons were invented, and they can't be un-invented. The US and the USSR managed to avoid blowing ourselves all to hell because our guys, and the Russians, in the end didn't want to die and blow up the world. Now we've got religious fanatics in the world who would gladly not only push the button if they could, but in fact would strap themselves to the bomb and drive it straight into the heart of a major city to do so, if they could.

We've got religious whackos running around blowing people up for Allah, or trying to foment a war between the Israelis and the Arabs so that they can blow up the Al Aqsa mosque and rebuild a jewish temple there, so that Jesus can come back again. I honestly don't think that humanity will outlive the 21st century. Someone's going to get a hold of the bomb and use it, and all hell will break loose.

I also think that's how the last days are going to play out. I just happen to believe that Jesus will come at the end. I also believe that I will die before He returns. I've long thought that I would not be able to survive the next world war. Even so, I continue planning for retirement etc. instead of stockpiling supplies. Maybe I'm insane.

Albert Einstein : "I do not know how the third World War will be fought, but I can tell you what they will use in the Fourth — rocks"

[_ktallamigo]

The state of humanity does look pretty bleak. From the Christian perspective there is hope - we look forward to the Second Coming. From a non-Christian or secular perspective - mankind is on the path to self-destruction.

I just really, really, really wish the church were true. It was very comforting being a TBM. All of life's most difficult questions were answered for me. I knew I was lucky to know the truth. I didn't have to worry.

But now that I don't believe it is true, this creates a real vacuum in my life. Now all those difficult questions don't have answers - and everything is uncertain. I guess that leaves me -- where? Where all the other human beings in the world are - trying to figure life out on their own. Back to square one.

ktall