What is Mormonism's Ultimate Punishment?

[_The Nehor]

See, this is why Mormons are given a bad name: for people like you and your way of responding and treating others.

I'm emulating my Savior: "A generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell."

Bye now.

I looked up the definition of viper, and one of them popped right out at me when I thought of you:

"A person regarded as malicious or treacherous."

You, Nehor, are quite malicious in your dealings. At least I am a kind soul. I feel no need to fear the damnation of hell.

But by your definition...should you?

I actually do worry about it.

You probably should too. Kindness is the easiest thing in the world to convince yourself you have. It's rare to meet anyone who genuinely thinks they are mean. Kindness is also not, contrary to modern myth, the penultimate virtue.

[_Coggins7]

I actually do worry about it.

You probably should too. Kindness is the easiest thing in the world to convince yourself you have. It's rare to meet anyone who genuinely thinks they are mean. Kindness is also not, contrary to modern myth, the penultimate virtue.

Good points all. Should one who is convinced of how great his own humility is be taken seriously as to the elucidation of that virtue?

[_The Nehor]

CFR of no one getting that special religious experience.

I did not say that "no one" gets "that special religious experience." I said, "so far as we know", nobody "gets it." If you want a reference, you can examine the "Twin Charges of Apostleship" chapter in The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power.

In regards to your question, I vote the former. If people got it, do you really think they would tell you of all people?

Why wouldn't they?

Part of me does want them to suffer that fate. That part of me needs to die. Additionally, what I think they deserve is irrelevant. In addition, ticking me off does not deserve an eternity of torment. When you hate God to the point that an eternity of that torment is the least painful option for you, then you stay there. So Scratch, IF you know the Gospel is true and IF you still hate it, then you can likely have the fortitude to spit at the Atonement at the Last Day and go into everlasting fire forever. If you're anxious to get to such a point, good luck, sounds like hard mental work.

Edit: Also, if you want a glimpse of hell the Lord has said he's shown it unto 'many'. Try asking him.

So: you are conceding that your interpretation is unsupportable, and that, in fact, the correct view of the doctrine is that garden-variety apostates will go to that place where "their worm dieth not"? Otherwise, I'd like to see your evidence that the passage in D&C refers only to the Last Day....

Face it Nehor: you have no evidence. Your long-standing, warm 'n' cuddly view of this scripture is incorrect. I'm sure it's deeply troubling for you to know that the Church indicates that any who turn away from the Church will be sent to Outer Darknes, but, well.... There it is.

Why wouldn't they tell you? Let's see....there's the long track record of using all claims about the LDS Church to discredit it, the choice to see the negative about every aspect of our faith that you can (whether there is or is not a negative). If the Savior appeared to me tonight and told me to tell it to those who I thought needed to hear it, you wouldn't make the list.

I conceded no such thing. Why would it trouble me that apostates go to hell? In fact they do go to hell. They just have a way out. A thousand years of unspeakable torment? That's warm and cuddly to you? Let's turn to D&C and see what the Savior said about it. If you don't repent you get to suffer as he did.....huh, wasn't that whole atonement thing supposed to be painful? Or did you never learn anything about that either?

Scratch, the LDS interpretation of this verse is taught repeatedly throughout the Church. It's all over Institute, Seminary, and Sunday School manuals. Many of the Brethren have taught it repeatedly. Either you've never been active in Church, never listened to what was taught and never did any research, or you're pretending ignorance because you're a jackass. Take your pick. Guess which one I think is right.

[_Mister Scratch]

Pretty poor logic here. Further, for this to be true, it would involve undermining the testimonies of millions of faithful Saints. I submit that *ALL* rank-and-file LDS in good standing believe, with all their hearts and souls, that they know the Church is true, and that, indeed, the "heavens have been opened for them." What more evidence would have to be presented to the average Saint for there to be a risk of Outer Darkness? Epistemologically speaking, there is no difference. The typical faithful Saint believes just the same, regardless of whether s/he has seen Christ in the flesh.

Face it: Garden variety apostasy, as per D&C 76, merits Outer Darkness. This is the most correct interpretation of that passage.

There are a couple of problems here.

First we have the statement by Joseph Smith himself. I pulled it out of JFSs Teachings of the Prophet but it comes from the Documentive History of the Church. LDS have always understood that to merit outer darkness one must deny the Holy Ghost-which is the only unforgivable sin. So you must overturn what the man who promulgated the revelation your are discussing. Why should we believe you over him?

Yes, Jason, I recognize all that, and yet must ask again: Is this quote considered canonical scripture? No. It is not.

Next, it is pretty clear, and I have shown it by quotes from at least two leaders and one lesson manual, and there are many other such statements, that all the leaders of the LDS Church pretty much understand it the way Joseph Smith explained it and the way I am arguing here.

The simple fact that many LDS have understood it a certain way is beside the point---it is argumentum ad populorum.

Last of all it is clear almost all members understand it this way as well. So if you are right and everyone else wrong the effectiveness of this doctrine in deterring apostasy is fairly ineffective. Nobody understands it this way including the prophet who originated the doctrine.

I think you lose on this one my friend.

I don't think it's entirely clear or obvious that Joseph Smith "understood" this revelation in the same way, and in fact, when one takes historical context into consideration, I think that Outer Darkness for apostates (those who betrayed Joseph Smith) seems pretty reasonable.

In any case, I do want to reiterate that you may very well be right, Jason. You do have some good, somewhat persuasive evidence on your side (however problematic it may be). I think that, in the end, contrary to what Coggins says, this doctrine is rather foggy and unclear. And if the doctrine's main function, as you suggest, is deterrence of apostasy, well, what could be better than a fuzzy teaching which allows for the possibility of eternal torment for this sin? I would imagine that it works to the Church's advantage to "have it both ways," as it were.

[_Coggins7]

Or did you never learn anything about that either?

My suspicion is that Scratch has never actually been a Mormon, and has received all his knowledge about the Church from Signature Books and critic's websites.

Hence, although he understands general, surface concepts, the nuances and details escape him completely. Of course, Harmony is a Mormon, and her knowledge of even rudimentary Gospel concepts is marginal, so I could be mistaken.

[_Scottie]

Or did you never learn anything about that either?

My suspicion is that Scratch has never actually been a Mormon, and has received all his knowledge about the Church from Signature Books and critic's websites.

Hence, although he understands general, surface concepts, the nuances and details escape him completely. Of course, Harmony is a Mormon, and her knowledge of even rudimentary Gospel concepts is marginal, so I could be mistaken.

You had the same suspicion about me Cogs...

Have any of the critics on this board ever been Mormon??

[_moksha]

I was wondering about a 24 hour talk on home canning and genealogy as a form of ultimate punishment.

[_ludwigm]

The Mormon version of "Hell" is the Mormonism itself.

Please generate such choice in the poll.

[_The Nehor]

Or did you never learn anything about that either?

My suspicion is that Scratch has never actually been a Mormon, and has received all his knowledge about the Church from Signature Books and critic's websites.

Hence, although he understands general, surface concepts, the nuances and details escape him completely. Of course, Harmony is a Mormon, and her knowledge of even rudimentary Gospel concepts is marginal, so I could be mistaken.

You had the same suspicion about me Cogs...

Have any of the critics on this board ever been Mormon??

I believe Merc, Porter, and Infymus were once LDS. I also think they missed the nuances of the religion because they possess a limited protobrain only capable of holding external objects in one of two states: lust or hate.

Merc has defaulted to hate, unable to find anything to lust after in the Church. Porter and Infymus have mostly defaulted to hate, though their obsession with sexual innuendos about Church leaders and their hunt for images portraying General Authorities in sexual situations suggest there may be a lingering (and creepy) remnant of that lust.

[_Yoda]

There have been quite a few postings pertaining to this subject over on the aptly named MADboard as of late, and it makes me wonder: What, at heart, is the "punishment" belying Mormonism? That is, what is the grand, horrible fate that will befall you if you "go astray"? This seems to me one of the very peculiar and difficult-to-nail down facets of Church doctrine, and yet, in its own way, it seems every bit as essential as the doctrine of eternal progression. So, what is the punishment? Is there a hierarchy? Or is there no real "punishment?" As I see it, there seem to be several different forms of post-mortal "hell":

---Spirit Prison
---Outer Darkness (where the Sons of Perdition are sent)
---The Telestial Kingdom (for murderers and other sinners)

So, is it fair to say that there is indeed something resembling "hell" within Mormonism? And if so, what sins are grievous enough to earn you a ticket there?

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I have not read all six pages of this thread, so if someone else has covered this, I apologize. Here is my take on the LDS concept of Hell that I was taught growing up as a Church member:

I'll break down the three categories that Scratch laid out here:

--Spirit Prison: This is a temporary "waiting place". Since resurrection is a gift given to all by the Savior, all of us, saints and sinners, will be resurrected. Those who are judged worthy for Terrestrial and Celestial glory will await resurrection in Paradise. They will be at rest. Those who are judged worthy of Telestial glory will be in Spirit Prison.

--Outer Darkness: This is where the Sons of Perdition dwell. Only those who have a full and complete understanding of the gospel and deny Christ himself will dwell here. Outer Darkness is most closely comparable to the EV description of Hell (wailing, gnashing of teeth, etc.).

--Telestial Kingdom: Murderers, rapists, serious sinners will dwell here. However, since God is merciful, the Telestial Kingdom is still a kingdom of glory. Joseph Smith once commented that if one were to see the Telestial Kingdom, they would commit suicide to go there. (No, I don't have a citing or documentation for this quote. For all I know, it could be a Mormon urban legend, but this is something I heard often growing up.).

The Terrestrial Kingdom, or "middle kingdom", is where most people will end up. This is the kingdom where people will dwell who have committed minor sins, etc. I was always taught that there would be more Mormons in this kingdom than any other. We as members have more responsibility because we were taught the gospel here. We are held accountable at a greater level than non-members. Non Church members will be taught the gospel in the next life, and if they accept it, will be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. I never really thought this was fair. I thought, "Gee, why couldn't I just be a non-member? Then I could be given a little more slack, and still accept the gospel in the next life. Doesn't seem fair!"

The Celestial Kingdom is where everyone really wants to be, but you have to be almost perfect to get there. This is the only place where you can dwell with your family, and with God.

For me, and I think for most Mormons I knew growing up, the Terrestrial Kingdom was the real Hell. Living eternity knowing that you were given the gospel in this life, and you just couldn't quite measure up. You spend eternity not being able to be with your family, and be a servant to those who are deserving of a "far greater glory".

No wonder so many Mormons are depressed, and dealing with perfection anxiety. *sigh*