Oh Those Missionaries!

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Glad to see that your omnipotence now not only covers how every missionary in the world would or would not act, but also the extent of posters knowledge of alcoholism!



Yes, my omni becomes more potent by the hour. Knowledge of alcoholism. I have 23 years of personal experiene as well as intellectual study of it, so, moving right along...


I didn't mention alcoholism once in my post. My point wasn't tied to your alcoholism, it was tied to member's varying reactions to the same teachings. Your reaction was very different than mine. I was taught that coffee, alcohol and tobacco were things we didn't "try", even with severe emotional pressure.


Yes, that's the case, and regarding every other prohibition other than alcohol, I have maintained that principle.

In my case, I didn't take my first drink of alcohol or coffee, until I had formally left the church, when I was 40. I know that there are many people who nonetheless experiment with these things as apart of growing up, and unfortunately some of them succomb to alcoholism. But I think it is still safe to say that neither they nor you would have become alcoholics if you had never taken your first drink (which the church teaches us not to do) Yes I know alcoholism is a disease, and you were born that way, but the effects of your disease only come after you've taken your first drink right?


First of all, I did take my first drink. That is the reality. Only the solution is important at this point. Secondly, alcoholism is not a disease; it is a mindset and a way of perceiving the world, as are all other forms of addiction. I do not accept the disease model. I tried, mightily through many years in and out of AA, but in the end, the concept simply does not work and does not harmonize with reality. Addiction is a syndrome; a set of symptoms in the form of behaviors, thoughts, ideations, and attitudes, in other words, complex human behavior. The only thing I was born with was a susceptibility to addiction, not the addiction itself, and I am responsible, with the assistance of Jesus Christ, of removing it from my life. The first drink thing is moot, and is a crying over spilled milk of no therapeutic value.

My point was, which you sidestepped with your appeal to your alcoholism, was that member's reactions to the same teachings will never be the same.


But, true as this may be, this has no relation to my case. My reaction to the WoW was complete acceptance, from childhood into adulthood. My first drink was a lark, under horrendous emotional pressure, which I need not go into, and was intended to be a one time thing. But the positive reinforcement was too intense, especially given my circumstances. This is one way addiction is generated.
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Alter Idem
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Post by _Alter Idem »

Mike Reed wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:And why should I believe you Jack? Are you an authoritative source? Oh, just telling some stories? Here come more stories of how bad the Church and its people are. I've been in the Church all of my life, and although I never served a full time mission, I've done plenty of it with those so serving. I've also been close to many who have been on foreign missions in Catholic and other countries, and your claim that this is common sounds as phony as most of the other such stories we are used to intercepting here in the MIG Ally of Mormondiscussions.com


Exmo Moonbats of the world unite...

On my mission a few elders had asked me to take a picture of them as they posed disrespectively on religious statues. I also remember seeing other disrespectful pictures that were similar. My observation has been that this kind of behavior is not uncommin in the LDS Church. But I severely doubt that the missionary broke the head on purpose. I suspect that it was broken accidentally... maybe while sitting on the head for a pose.


I think you could be right--if they did break the head, I expect it was accidental. They also could have found the head already broken off. As I mentioned, it doesn't matter because they're going to be blamed for it anyway--and the church has paid for the repairs to try and make some amends.
I'm sure these kinds of antics are not uncommon among young missionaries. Hopefully this incident and the negative press will help curb these antics. The three will be facing church discipline--one was still serving in the mission and was sent home. Can you imagine the humiliation of having to return home because you were goofing around? I'm sure they did not think of the serious offense they were committing against another faith. The other two will probably be called in by their Bishops this week. Also, the Parish wants to press charges. We'll have to see what develops.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

You apparently have very limited ability to detect "liars, deceivers, etc". You repeatedly called people liars in the telestial thread about the temple, and they were all telling the truth.


No, not really. Pay Lay Ale has not been spoken in the Temple for an age. There was a flat footed lie stated to the effect that B&L had gone through the Temple in, I believe, 1987, and "Chanted" (the words were spoken in unison, not "chanted") . Well, I went through in 1980, and no such words were present, nor were they when my parents went through in the forties. I have here, either on disk or in book form, an ancient text, either, I believe, Christian Gnostic or early Christian apocrypha, in which the words spoken in the Endowment are mentioned quite clearly in virtually identical form. When I find them, I will post them. This is another little parallel, another "bullseye" that Joseph could not possible have known, that was part of Christina ritual life in the first centuries after Christ (if its actually Pseudopigrapha, that makes it even more interesting). The words are spoken in English, and there is nothing odd or weird about them.


I see. So sin only affects the testimony of people who LEAVE the church, right? If people STAY in the church, sin doesn't affect THEIR testimonies.


Sin affects the the relative strength of one's testimony in relative ways, depending upon one's spiritual maturity, experience, and the depth of the testimony one already has. Denying one's testimony and leaving the Church, however, is a sin, in and of itself, and a most consequential one.


You know, I really have never understood people like you,


And I've never, ever, understood people like you (I feel like Arnold Schwarzenegger talking to the Predator).


who claim to have a staunch testimony of the church and yet can't bring themselves to live by its principles.


I live by a great many of them. Lower the intellectual bar for your own self justification a little further Beastie.



If I really believed God didn't want me to drink, you'd better believe I wouldn't drink


(twirling finger in the air...)


(and didn't, when I was LDS). My exhusband had lots of relatives like this - oh, yes, they were all fervent believers in the church, but inactive, and breaking the WoW right and left.


I am an alcohol addict, not a social drinker or someone who drinks to be part of the crowd. I also have suffered from some OCD-like problems, and Tourette's Syndrome. I do not break the WoW in other aspects.

What you would do, or not do, in my life circumstances, is about as relevant to me as how cold it is on Pluto.
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_BishopRic
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Post by _BishopRic »

Coggins7 wrote:

Addiction is a syndrome; a set of symptoms in the form of behaviors, thoughts, ideations, and attitudes, in other words, complex human behavior.


Coggins, I'll just throw this out. I don't expect a positive response, but in the .1% chance you are interested in help, I am an addictions counselor. If you want help, let me know.
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
_skippy the dead
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Post by _skippy the dead »

beastie wrote:I was in two threesomes in my mission.


HOT!

beastie wrote:Usually they don't work out very well. Someone does end up feeling left out.


That's what I hear.

[/end irresistible immaturity]
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

BishopRic wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:

Addiction is a syndrome; a set of symptoms in the form of behaviors, thoughts, ideations, and attitudes, in other words, complex human behavior.


Coggins, I'll just throw this out. I don't expect a positive response, but in the .1% chance you are interested in help, I am an addictions counselor. If you want help, let me know.


Thanks. I have a LDS sponsored meeting here, and two online forums, also LDS. But thanks for the offer.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
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Post by _Pokatator »

Coggins7 wrote:
Pokatator wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:Nonsense. My family, those still alive, are very much active. Much of my inactivity has been due to my wife's continual illnesses and physical problems. Because of alcoholism, I'm not, at present, a full participant in all the blessings of the Gospel, but this hardly makes me "inactive" as in "fallen away". My biological son and my step sons are inactive, but that hardly encompasses all of my family.


That explains your anger.

Coggins7 wrote:what does my being a recovering alcoholic have to do with anything?


For me it explains the quality and content of your posts.

Cog I will pray for you.



Actually, I've always had limited tolerance for certain kinds of people. I can smell insincerity, disingenuity, and intellectual dishonesty for miles. Nice try at psychologizing me Poke, but I've studied a great deal of psychology, and have my own ideas regarding my behavior here, as elsewhere.


I'm not really trying to "psychologize" you Cog.

I'm not angry at my kids. They have their own path and my wife has, in a sacred experience within the Temple, been made aware that this situation will not always be the case.


I'll take your word on that.

I find it interesting that you perceive that the anger I express here and there (did you see any in the Fatherhood of God thread?) while it may have some bearing upon my addiction (but I don't drink that much, and only intermittently, so I'm not sure that this is the salient issue at all), must have something to do with some aspect of my personal life, while ignoring the possibility that I have limited tolerance for liars, deceivers, slanderers, and self serving misanthropes who base and defame the things I hold sacred.


Sorry, Cog, but I perceive a little anger in most all of your threads.

As I've pointed out before,, its only when I engage certain people that I become combative, which is why I don't spend nearly as much time around here as I used to.


I have limited my time here also and also for the same reason.

I will continue to pray for you and myself.
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
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_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

beastie wrote:Moksha,

Sometimes, usually due to having an uneven number of missionaries, missionaries are part of a "threesome" instead of a twosome. I was in two threesomes in my mission. Usually they don't work out very well. Someone does end up feeling left out.


I <3 you. ;P

(beastie sometimes you just make it so easy for a dirty minded person like me to be well....dirty minded).
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

beastie wrote:Moksha,

Sometimes, usually due to having an uneven number of missionaries, missionaries are part of a "threesome" instead of a twosome. I was in two threesomes in my mission. Usually they don't work out very well. Someone does end up feeling left out.


Ah, the old Missionary à Trois approach. So this isn't like one of those riddles as to how many Missionaries it take to do something or other, like one to hold the camera and three to commit... whatever.
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Post by _Pokatator »

How does the missionary position work with a threesome?
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
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