Can Mormons Believe in Evolution? (Click here for the answer

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_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

bcspace wrote:


Non doctrinal and did you even read it? He actually admits it's okay to believe what you will as long as you can reconcile it with doctrine and goes on to explain why he himself can't reconcile it.

Can you harmonize the theories of men with the inspired words that say:


Rhetorical question. He couldn't fathom that anyone could tie themselves in such mental knots as to be able to "harmonize" the two in light of the scriptures.
The scriptures are revelation aren't they???

But the important thing is that evolution by is true.
Anyone who doubts it should start out by watching this: http://tiny.cc/15YFY
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
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_John Larsen
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Post by _John Larsen »

bcspace wrote:
I can harmonize evolution with LDS doctrine and I even base my harmonization on a key LDS scripture.


According to evolution, my ancestors were on this planet 3 billion years ago and they swam in the ocean. How do you harmonize that, precisely?
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_William Schryver
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Post by _William Schryver »

I think that faithful Latter-day Saints who claim to believe in organic evolution probably do so with a series of qualifiers wrapped around their beliefs.

They read this phrase from the creation account in Moses:

And I, God, said: Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl which may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

And discern an implicit reference to the notion that the oceans are the source for “fowl which may fly above the earth.” This seems to allow for some kind of “evolution.”

On the other hand, the same creation account situates Adam and Eve as the primal parents of all mankind, thereby causing the faithful LDS to qualify either the degree to which s/he believes the scriptures, or the degree to which s/he believes the proponents of Darwinism.

I believe, however, that the overwhelming majority of LDS, if they think about the question at all, tend towards qualifying their belief in evolution. Only in the bloggernacle do you see the phenomenon of dedicated Darwinists also claiming belief in LDS doctrine.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
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_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

In addition to the first presidency statement and teachings from prophets and leaders the scriptures are pretty clear.

Unless one wants to dismiss scripture as myth, and not official doctrine, seems to me there are conflicts.


What FP message and/or scripture do you think precludes a TBM from accepting evolution?

On the other hand, the same creation account situates Adam and Eve as the primal parents of all mankind, thereby causing the faithful LDS to qualify either the degree to which s/he believes the scriptures, or the degree to which s/he believes the proponents of Darwinism.


There are several ways one could go here.

1. Homo Sapiens prior to Adam did not have spirits that were the literal children of God. Therefore, they don't qualify as 'mankind'.

2. Homo Sapiens not not macro-evolve but everything else does.

I happen to prefer the first one.

I believe, however, that the overwhelming majority of LDS, if they think about the question at all, tend towards qualifying their belief in evolution. Only in the bloggernacle do you see the phenomenon of dedicated Darwinists also claiming belief in LDS doctrine.


We took a show of hands in Gospel Doctrine recently during a heated debate on the issue. A little less than half accepted the evolution of man as not being in conflict with LDS doctrine.

According to evolution, my ancestors were on this planet 3 billion years ago and they swam in the ocean. How do you harmonize that, precisely?


Easily. 2 Nephi 2:22 shows that everything was created into a state of no death. What about the creative state itself? Since there are no constraints (such as no death) on the creative state, evolution is possible.

I know several who hold the opinion that if one believes in evolution they do not have a true testimony of the LDS church and the plan of salvation.


As do I. But when you ask them to show how evolution is precluded, they can't do it. I accept the fall of man (BRM's main requirement) and I also accept evolution knowing that it does not conflict.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
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Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
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_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

bcspace wrote:
Easily. 2 Nephi 2:22 shows that everything was created into a state of no death. What about the creative state itself?

There is no separate creative state. Evolution is still going on! What of the ancestors of modern species--you think they were not yet created in some sense? Not finished? Weird. Were the dinosaurs ever finished? When did they enjoy "no death"?
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
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_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

Easily. 2 Nephi 2:22 shows that everything was created into a state of no death. What about the creative state itself?

There is no separate creative state.


Yes there is. The scriptures clearly differentiate between them. As for after the Fall....

Evolution is still going on!


Amen!

What of the ancestors of modern species--you think they were not yet created in some sense? Not finished? Weird. Were the dinosaurs ever finished? When did they enjoy "no death".


When things were finished according to plan, Adam was placed in the garden into a state of no death. Evolution continues apace after the fall. The dinosaurs died out long before Adam (65 million y.a.)
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
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_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

bcspace wrote: Evolution continues apace after the fall.

1. What was the point of temporarily suspending death?

2. And, why describe it as no death before the fall? Why not say no death for the short period of the garden? Isn't that clearer and more truthful (assuming your version)?
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
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_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

and

3) Evolution created flesh and bone bodies that were subject to death. It takes billions of years of evolution to do that but, poof, in a twinkling of an eye all of that is replaced by super bodies with no death? What a weird mixture of scientific and magical thinking.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
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_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

bcspace:

When things were finished according to plan, Adam was placed in the garden into a state of no death.


But .. there are all kinds of creatures, both great and all the way down to microscopically small, that depend on the death of other creatures (natural or by violence) in order to live. Presumably these creatures were excluded from the alleged garden? Otherwise, it can hardly have been a no-death zone.
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_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

and

3) Evolution created flesh and bone bodies that were subject to death. It takes billions of years of evolution to do that but, poof, in a twinkling of an eye all of that is replaced by super bodies with no death?


Sure. Why not? Anyway you slice it, those same 'super bodies' exist in the garden whether one is evolutionist of creationist.

What a weird mixture of scientific and magical thinking.


Should we assume then that you consider all religion to fall under the category of 'magical thinking'?
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
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