Can Mormons Believe in Evolution? (Click here for the answer

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_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

You obviously do not understand evolution which has homo sapiens and apes with a common ancestor. Under my hypothesis, Adam's physical mother is a homo sapiens or scientifically indistinguishable from one.

Of course. You don't get it. You obviously don't understand that we are apes. You want to win by semantics?


I've won whether semantics or not.

The mother was a souless homo sapiens (a type of ape).


Says who? At least you admit the homo sapien. Based on that alone, the debate is over in my favor unless you can come up with a different angle.

But as you know, LDS doctrine has all living things with spirits.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

bcspace wrote:
You obviously do not understand evolution which has homo sapiens and apes with a common ancestor. Under my hypothesis, Adam's physical mother is a homo sapiens or scientifically indistinguishable from one.

Of course. You don't get it. You obviously don't understand that we are apes. You want to win by semantics?


I've won whether semantics or not.

The mother was a souless homo sapiens (a type of ape).


Says who? At least you admit the homo sapien.


homo spaien? "homo sapiens" is not the plural of "homo sapien". It is singular and the plural would be "Homines sapientes".

But, you said Adam was the first to have a spirit. So did he love his nonhuman spiritless mother?
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

LDS and Christianity demand a paradisaical man who fell from grace and perfection and required a redeemer. You cannot accept the evolution of man and not run into some major modifications for the literal need for a Christ to save mankind.


How so?

Now, if you argue that there were beasts out there that resembled man but were not God's children or that God even used evolution to create the first human that could be called Adam and filled with a spirit I guess that might work


It does work. In fact, homo sapiens could have existed for a long time before God felt the time was right.

but it sure takes some gyrations.


The only thing need is a creative state with no prohibitions and a created state. Since such is already provided, no gyrations are required.

And no LDS leader has ever taught such.


No need. The LDS Church has not filled in the blanks. All that is required is that one not run afoul of LDS doctrine when filling in such blanks.

THe closest we come to anything differing from the Genesis account from LDS leaders is Birigham's ideas that Adam was a god that came to the earth with one of his wive's, ate food of this earth and became mortal, sinned, died aand eas resurrected and went back to being a god.


Not quite. BY never taught any such thing as "Adam-God" BY taught that God the Father and Heavenly Mother were an 'Adam' and 'Eve' who came to an earth and by partaking of the food, were able to beget the Adam and Eve who subsequently fell.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_William Schryver
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Post by _William Schryver »

Tal Bachman wrote:I want to sincerely thank "bc space" for making me look great on here. He even went above and beyond the call of duty and mentioned the church class vote, bolstering my point. Thanks, chum! (clink)

Hey BC - can you be a sport and do it some more? Just try tackling this one, and all my dreams will come true:

Since "The Origin of Man" is an official First Presidency statement which claims to state official LDS doctrine, would you be so kind as to post links to the equally authoritative, subsequent official First Presidency statements, which state that Mormons are NOT "duty bound to regard Adam as the primal parent of the human race?"

Good luck.

Let the official Mormon Mindgame Olympics continue!

I owe you, bc. :P

T.

I think that, by and large, your argument is incontrovertible. Although one could conceivably argue that there is a tacit "permission," if you will, to disregard or even disbelieve the precepts contained in The Origin of Man. Therefore, while perhaps we should feel "duty bound," it is apparent that that duty is not viewed as being in the top echelon of requirements for the faithful.

In any case, this thread isn't about the apparent conflict between evolution and LDS doctrine. Rather, it is a vehicle to argue your real thesis:

Strictly speaking, "Mormonism" doesn't exist; only individual versions of what people enjoy imagining is "Mormonism" exist.


Again, I believe this is a conclusion that could only be reached after being exposed to the type of LDS that seem to predominate in the bloggernacle. And, in the context of the bloggernacle, I would have to concede that your argument has merit. However, as I noted recently:

Do any of you actually participate in wards where you know someone else who frequents the bloggernacle? If so, what would you estimate is the ratio of bloggernaclists (there’s a word!) to non-bloggernaclists?

I ask because I really am not aware of anyone in my entire stake who is a bloggernaclist. So I’m wondering if my stake/area is the aberration, or if my impression is correct that bloggernaclists make up about 1/2 of 1 percent of the active LDS membership in North America (about 10,000 out of 2.5 million).

I hate to give too much credence to Jason's "Internet Mormons/Chapel Mormons" arguments -- mainly because I think he misses out on some nuances of the issue -- but the fact remains that when someone like Tal makes a statement like his original post in this thread, its relevance to "real" LDS culture and belief is almost nil.

bcspace claims a bare majority of disbelievers in organic evolution in his Sunday School class. Well, I don't know where he lives, or the specific demographics of his ward, but I can say that his experience is notably atypical to my own. I would venture to say that fewer than 20% even appreciate the controversy, and of those, fewer than half (< 10% of the whole) would claim a belief in organic evolution. It just isn't that important to them. Their lives are lived on a different plane; a different stage. They aren't dumb. They just aren't interested.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

Adam was created in the garden was he not?


No he was not Genesis 2:7-8, Moses 3:7-8.

Thanks for reminding me of a detail that speaks favorably to my theory.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

I think that, by and large, your argument is incontrovertible. Although one could conceivably argue that there is a tacit "permission," if you will, to disregard or even disbelieve the precepts contained in The Origin of Man.


I'm still waiting for someone to show how evolution contradicts the (or any) FP statement. Tarski is going the 'souless ape' route, but he's already admitted that ape = homo sapiens and he's conveniently not addressing the fact that in LDS doctrine, all living things are/have spirits.

Knowing this, he's now been reduced to going after typos. He's finished.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

I gotta repeat this because I really want a reply.

You think Adam and Eve were real but that Adam's mother was a spiritless nonhuman. The spirit is where the self resides according to the usual doctrine. Our identity and self consciousness goes with the spirit not the body right? So Adam's loving mother wasn't even a "conscious self".

Adam was created in the garden was he not? What does that mean? The souless ape mommy went into the deathless garden and had a super baby? Did she stay in the deathless garden and raise him or did he just stand up and change his own diapers? What about Eve? Different nonconscious zombie mother or the same one?


Why oh why go to so much trouble to reconcile realistic science with Bronze Age myths? Snap out of it and join us. The water is fine.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_bcspace
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Post by _bcspace »

bcspace claims a bare majority of disbelievers in organic evolution in his Sunday School class. Well, I don't know where he lives, or the specific demographics of his ward, but I can say that his experience is notably atypical to my own. I would venture to say that fewer than 20% even appreciate the controversy, and of those, fewer than half (< 10% of the whole) would claim a belief in organic evolution. It just isn't that important to them. Their lives are lived on a different plane; a different stage. They aren't dumb. They just aren't interested.


I live in an area that's 95% LDS though not in Utah. It was during the recent 2 Nephi 2 lesson where this topic came up. The GD teacher (for whom I am a regular substitute) bashed evolution and I spoke up. Seeing me speak up, several others spoke up too. The GD teacher asked for a show of hands. The Bishop did not raise his hand, but the first counselor to the Stake President did. Both those two stated that LDS doctrine did not address the issue of creationism vs evolution and that as long as one believed the doctrine, one was fine. The class went over by 20 minutes.

I think people who were strongly creationist calmed down when they found out that creationism was not doctrine and that I was not teaching my opinion for doctrine.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_William Schryver
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Post by _William Schryver »

Tarski:

Snap out of it and join us. The water is fine.

I know that in my past experience, the more people in the pool, the less likely I am to want to join them.

If you know what I mean.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_bcspace
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Post by _bcspace »

I gotta repeat this because I really want a reply.

You think Adam and Eve were real but that Adam's mother was a spiritless nonhuman.


Nope. Try again. I've well answered this in very simple terms already.

The spirit is where the self resides according to the usual doctrine. Our identity and self consciousness goes with the spirit not the body right? So Adam's loving mother wasn't even a "conscious self".


I believe Adam's homo sapiens mother had a spirit like all living things. As for consciencious or self awareness, I think it likely given what we know about early homo sapiens. I think the Fall of Adam could conceivably be pushed back double or triple from the standard 4004 B.C. thinking, but that still does not cover early homo sapiens by a long shot.

Adam was created in the garden was he not?


No. See the verses I referenced.

What does that mean? The souless ape mommy went into the deathless garden and had a super baby? Did she stay in the deathless garden and raise him or did he just stand up and change his own diapers? What about Eve? Different nonconscious zombie mother or the same one?


I don't believe there ever was a 'souless ape mommy'.

Why oh why go to so much trouble to reconcile realistic science


It's been no trouble at all.

with Bronze Age myths?


Which myths?

Snap out of it and join us. The water is fine.


Parts of you are sloughing off in the boiling water.....No thanks!
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
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