The Intellectual Crudity of Non-Theist Apologists

[_GoodK]

GoodK
I've read the Sam Harris book twice (I thought a lot of it was very incisive, actually), I've read the Dawkins book, I'm half done the Hitchens book, and I don't plan on reading Dennett's book because I've been following him for years on the subject of consciousness and I can't stand the guy. Reading his stuff makes me cringe.

Wow. Can't stand Dennett? Ya, he's a real dick... *rolls eyes*

As it happens (not sure it matters), I've probably read a lot more Bertrand Russell than you, and I'm probably more familiar with Harris's stuff than you are (including "Letters to a Christian Nation").

Obviously it matters if you brought it up, but I have been following Harris for years. I met him twice last year, and my autographed copies of both of his books are as colorful as my Book of Mormon and Bible with highlights. I've also read all of his debates, and you obviously haven't because you are bringing up the same tired argument by many others (who have argued it better):

(You'd benefit from reading these debates completely, so you can catch up to me on your Sam Harris knowledge)

If I and all other believers in God are to be lumped with Muslims who believe that slaughtering innocents gets you sex in heaven, then you must be lumped with Josef Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung and all the other atheists who butchered more innocents than all the religious crackpots in history.

http://www.jewcy.com/dialogue/11-16/day ... s_so_angry

I don't feel duty-bound to defend stuff that's done in the name of God which I don't think God approved or advocated. Have things been done wrong in the name of Christianity? Yes. Sam makes the statement in his book that religion is bad for the world, but far more people have been killed through atheists than through all the religious wars put together. Thousands died in the Inquisition; millions died under Mao, and under Stalin and Pol Pot. There is a home for atheists in the world today—it's called North Korea. I don't know any atheists who want to go there. I'd much rather live under Tony Blair, or even George Bush. The bottom line is that atheists, who accuse Christians of being intolerant, are as intolerant—

http://richarddawkins.net/article,825,T ... n-Newsweek

It is just that...I could be wrong...but I don't think the point about atheist ideologies inspiring murder just as theist ideologies do has been answered.

Well that is because you choose to defend your religion using number 3 of the list you must be well aware of:
1. Argue that its true
2. Argue that its useful
3. Argue that atheism is dogmatic or otherwise worthy of contempt

[_dartagnan]

I'd like to see some evidence of organized Atheists. Could you supply at least 3 examples?

Here's five to whet your appetite.

Military Assoc. of Atheists & Freethinkers
Jason Torpy
5710A Bixbywoods Court
Columbus, OH 43232
Community@maaf.information

Michigan Atheists
Arlene-Marie
PO Box 25,
Allen Park, MI 48101-0025
Phone: (313) 388-9594
Cell: (313) 938-5960
amarie@atheists.org

San Francisco Atheists
Lenny Maughan
900 Bush Street, #210
San Francisco, CA 94109
information@sfatheists.org

Individuals For Freethought
Kansas State University
809 K-State Union, Ground Floor
Manhattan, KS 66506
freethought@k-state.edu

Agnostic & Atheist Student Assoc (AGASA)
University of California at Davis
Jeremy Ross, President
jerross@ucdavis.edu

[_Tarski]

I'd like to see some evidence of organized Atheists. Could you supply at least 3 examples?

Here's five to whet your appetite.

Military Assoc. of Atheists & Freethinkers
Jason Torpy
5710A Bixbywoods Court
Columbus, OH 43232
Community@maaf.information

Michigan Atheists
Arlene-Marie
PO Box 25,
Allen Park, MI 48101-0025
Phone: (313) 388-9594
Cell: (313) 938-5960
amarie@atheists.org

San Francisco Atheists
Lenny Maughan
900 Bush Street, #210
San Francisco, CA 94109
information@sfatheists.org

Individuals For Freethought
Kansas State University
809 K-State Union, Ground Floor
Manhattan, KS 66506
freethought@k-state.edu

Agnostic & Atheist Student Assoc (AGASA)
University of California at Davis
Jeremy Ross, President
jerross@ucdavis.edu

that's a big list.
Of course, my list of organized theists is somewhat longer and older and more powerful and well, you get the picture.

[_Gadianton]

Almost nobody believes in memes. Dawkins isn't very good on philosophy problems either, but I love his attacks on religion and his presentation of ideas in biology.

I don't think noting memes would cut both ways is that big of a deal, I'm sure Dawkins has thought about it. Christian apologists make huge issues of things like that in their delusion that they've solved all problems of epistemology by accepting Jesus as their savior. If memes are real, then the fact that they can explain Christianity or atheism doesn't mean either is false, just that there are explanations other than having truth for success.

Further, it may be that some beliefs are memes and others are not, and even if someone may want to claim atheism is just another meme, perhaps it could be argued that it's not.

[_Jersey Girl]

I'd like to see some evidence of organized Atheists. Could you supply at least 3 examples?

Here's five to whet your appetite.

Military Assoc. of Atheists & Freethinkers
Jason Torpy
5710A Bixbywoods Court
Columbus, OH 43232
Community@maaf.information

Michigan Atheists
Arlene-Marie
PO Box 25,
Allen Park, MI 48101-0025
Phone: (313) 388-9594
Cell: (313) 938-5960
amarie@atheists.org

San Francisco Atheists
Lenny Maughan
900 Bush Street, #210
San Francisco, CA 94109
information@sfatheists.org

Individuals For Freethought
Kansas State University
809 K-State Union, Ground Floor
Manhattan, KS 66506
freethought@k-state.edu

Agnostic & Atheist Student Assoc (AGASA)
University of California at Davis
Jeremy Ross, President
jerross@ucdavis.edu

that's a big list.
Of course, my list of organized theists is somewhat longer and older and more powerful and well, you get the picture.

While you may take the position that size matters, Tarski, it has no bearing on the assertions that dart has made regarding the behavior/actions involved when theists or atheists organize. I actually think the comparison applies to most every organization.

[_dartagnan]

While you may take the position that size matters, Tarski, it has no bearing on the assertions that dart has made regarding the behavior/actions involved when theists or atheists organize.

You asked for three examples, obviously operating under the assumption that atheists don't generally organize themselves as atheists. I provided as you requested. There are hundreds of atheistic organizations. This proves that atheism is a belief that serves to unite atheists around the world. Atheists aren't generally anti-social couch potatos sitting at home being all atheistic to themselves without a care about what others do or think. Because atheism can be a powerful point of view, people have used it to further political and even religious agendas.

The fact that atheist organize proves my point. The fact that atheism has been used in the political context, also proves my point.

Incidentally, what makes Islam so dangerous is that it is both religious and political. In Islam, there is no division. In Christianity, religion and politics are separate. This is why I don't think there is a chance in hell for a Christian theocracy to exist in America, despite the alarmist mentality among the nutjobs. There are hardly any Christians at all, who even entertain concept as practical or even Christian to begin with.

[_dartagnan]

Is there a directly line from that pure lack to violence? How does that work?

The same as how religious violence works. You begin with the necessary elements:

1. a belief (scientism/materialism/Religions are dangerous, etc)
2. that special feeling (I know something most humans don't. I'm more evolved than those primitive thinking theists)
3. a sense of purpose (I'm going to be proactive in getting others to be like me - it will be better for society, after all)
4. source of authority (Dawkins/Harris/Dennett/Hitchens)

These four religious elements can quite easily end up causing members of both parties to rationalize "the end justifies the means." Not all atheists give a flying twit about any of this. But those who feel a sense of purpose, feel special, feel it is their duty to spread their message by any means necessary, are those who in effect, become a danger to society. Why? Because they fall into the same pattern as any fanatical Christian or Muslim. I mean mercury just last week threatened to put a bullet in my head. How many theists have said that to you in the past week? Month? Ever?

Mercury has joined the organized front of internet atheists. It gives him a sense of purpose. He feels smarter knowing that people who are obviously more educated, actually believe something he doesn't. He feels special and he enjoys the support people give him when he attacks a theist on this forum. The same holds true for others here who run to each other's defense like a pack of wolves, but mercury is a clear example of atheism gone terribly wrong.

Is it dangerous or evil to promote disbelief in these things?

So long as you're not providing shoddy scholarship in books that call religion a virus. Or say ridiculous things like religion is worse than rape. Talk about being divisive. It seems like Dawkins and Harris have take a page out of Walter Martin's method. Sensationalize and sell books.

[_dartagnan]

Christian apologists make huge issues of things like that in their delusion that they've solved all problems of epistemology by accepting Jesus as their savior.

I'm not a Christian apologist, but I think it is more likely that if those problems were as serious as atheists like to assume, then their leading ant-religion antagonist wouldn't have had to come up with this meme nonsense to begin with. There is nothing wrong in pointing out the problems with Dawkins' meme ideas. I've done that because it deserves to be addressed.

Dawkins isn't very good on philosophy problems either, but I love his attacks on religion and his presentation of ideas in biology.

Apparently, because they are attacks on religion? Quality doesn't seem to count for much anymore.

[Guest]

Of course, my list of organized theists is somewhat longer and older and more powerful and well, you get the picture.

Um, not really. Considering the fact that 97% of the world is theistic, one would expect the theistic organizations to be larger and more numerous.

My point was that atheists organized themselves under the banner of atheism. The fact that atheism unites them is evident in the title of their organizations. This also flies in teh face of many claims on this forum, that atheism is just "non-belief," or a "default position" and cannot be considered a belief system of any kind, nor compared to other belief systems. This is just wishful thinking by those who don't understand human sociology.

Atheism serves as an important identity for many atheists.

Again, there is no difference between theism and atheism in their capacities to be dangerous.

[_GoodK]

I'd like to see some evidence of organized Atheists. Could you supply at least 3 examples?

Here's five to whet your appetite.

Military Assoc. of Atheists & Freethinkers
Jason Torpy
5710A Bixbywoods Court
Columbus, OH 43232
Community@maaf.information

Michigan Atheists
Arlene-Marie
PO Box 25,
Allen Park, MI 48101-0025
Phone: (313) 388-9594
Cell: (313) 938-5960
amarie@atheists.org

San Francisco Atheists
Lenny Maughan
900 Bush Street, #210
San Francisco, CA 94109
information@sfatheists.org

Individuals For Freethought
Kansas State University
809 K-State Union, Ground Floor
Manhattan, KS 66506
freethought@k-state.edu

Agnostic & Atheist Student Assoc (AGASA)
University of California at Davis
Jeremy Ross, President
jerross@ucdavis.edu

Who asked for this? Of course there are organized atheists, and that is why I keep arguing that atheism isn't a word or label we should associate with.

It allows for threads like this to spin in circles with talks of words that describe nothing...