Where does 'The Spirit' come from?

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_Chap
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Where does 'The Spirit' come from?

Post by _Chap »

Religious believers, including LDS, frequently claim that their belief is supported by strong personal experience of the active presence of their deity - in LDS terms 'feeling The Spirit'. This strong feeling is often felt to beat any other kind of evidence - 'I have a spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon is true, and that <NAME> is a prophet of God'. But it is possible to conduct an experiment that proves that this kind of feeling can be produced by means so absurd as to reduce its evidential value to zero.

Francis Galton (1822-1911) , Darwin's cousin, was a pioneer geneticist, statistician, psychologist ... and a lot else besides, including the inventor of finger-printing. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton

At one time in his life, he became interested in the question of the source of the reverence paid to idols by what were then commonly called 'primitive' peoples. How could someone who knew that an image was a mere piece of painted wood - who indeed had possibly made it himself - regard such an object with the reverence and awe due to a deity? As a man of science, he decided to conduct an experiment. He decided to make an idol himself and to try the effect of worshipping it. In order to make the experiment as revealing as possible, he selected an object 'in itself quite unfitted to arouse devout feelings'. It was in fact the comical drawing of Mr Punch on the cover of a then famous British humorous magazine:

Image

To this image he forced himself to do daily obeisance, 'and made believe in its possession of divine attributes', including ' a mighty power to reward or punish'

http://galton.org/cgi-bin/searchImages/ ... s_0286.htm

He found 'little difficulties in ignoring the impossibilities of what I professed'. The experiment at length succeeded, and he tells us that 'he began to feel and long retained for the picture a large share for the feelings that a barbarian retains for his idol.' Another undocumented account tells us that Galton eventually gave up the experiment because it worked too well: every time he entered his London club and saw Mr Punch enthroned on the periodicals table, his legs became unsteady and a sweat broke out across his shoulders.

Hmm - reverence for Mr Punch is found through the act of worshipping him. The same would presumably go for Micky Mouse. And similar processes are perhaps at the root of the spiritual experiences claimed by the devotees of many religions. If so, the evidential value of these experiences is zero, apart from telling us the power we have over our own consciousnesses.

We begin by acting as if we believed: we end up believing for real - in pretty well anything. Now where have we heard that before?
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

it comes from the same place religion comes from, the human imagination.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

I'm not sure the scientific method allows you to do a single psychological experiment on yourself and then make definitive statements about your results, can it?

Especially one so subjective as this one.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

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_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

A wizard did it.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
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_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

Scottie wrote:I'm not sure the scientific method allows you to do a single psychological experiment on yourself and then make definitive statements about your results, can it?

Especially one so subjective as this one.


Well, I think you will find that people who study the actual practice of science rarely talk about 'the scientific method' as though there was only one. Rather, they tend to study the actual practice of scientists - of which Galton was an outstandingly creative example.

Single experiments. if widely accepted as valid, can often have a crucial impact on the direction of science. Consider the case of Einstein and the results obtained during the 1919 solar eclipse. What is more, It is perfectly legitimate to try out something on oneself to see what happens. A single such experiment can show the experimenter that something - in this case the production of feelings of religious awe for a meaningless object - can be produced by wholly artificial means. That destroys the claim that religious experiences prove that some divine entity external to the believer MUST be responsible.

One instance was enough to show Galton that his having a certain strong feeling about an entity proved nothing about the essential attributes (e.g. 'holiness') of that entity. And once we have heard of the single experiment Galton reports, the burden of proof shifts markedly in the direction all worshippers of idols, whether visible or invisible, to give reasons why their reported experiences should be treated differently from his, which can be explained without need to have recourse to any hypotheses about deities actually existing.

Of course, Galton could, had he wanted to carry things further, have got a large number of students to worship various entities such as alarm clocks or saucepans, and later tried to find objective signs of stress when they were exposed to their particular 'idols'. Nowadays it would be a lot easier to set up such an experiment than it was in Galton's time: the results would be interesting

But anyone on this board who doubts Galton's testimony can try his experiment for themselves ... pick your idol, worship it reverently for a week or so, and then return and report. Or you could even try pretending to be a Muslim, or a Southern Baptist for a week and then observe your changed feelings at the end of it. I bet you'll end up 'feeling the Spirit' of whatever religion you worship your way into.
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt about this. When you think about how people can and will literally worship just about anything, from professional athletes to actors, sports cars to stereos, or pets to pet stores, it seems pretty obvious that the object of worship derives its value from the worshipper, not the other way around.

The evidence is real... people really do feel those respectful, reverent, awe-like feelings, but it's what they extrapolate from that evidence that's faulty.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

I've told this story before, but this thread seems an appropriate place to tell it again.

I was having a discussion at MAD once about failing to get the proscribed answer promised in the Book of Mormon.

I admitted that yes, I HAD felt "good feelings" when I prayed, but nothing that I could claim was a definitive YES. The apologists chastised me that THAT was my answer!!

However, when pressed about their answers, it is NEVER any of the keywords (burning in the bosom, the sweet peace, the clarity of mind, etc). It was always some undeniably different experience that they couldn't explain.

Funny how they will reject a simple burning in the bosom, but expect all of us to take that as our answer.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_Boaz & Lidia
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Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

Here is where spirt(s) comes from in my home:

Image
_mentalgymnast

Re: Where does 'The Spirit' come from?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

I think the 'Spirit' is overrated and often abused in application. Joseph Smith said that the HG is often perceived as pure intelligence. Free flow of truth to the human spirit from extra sensory sources. I like that. Of course, this 'free flow of truth' can be manufactured within the human mind without external stimuli and mistakenly be labeled as revelation/inspiration. That which many would call intuition. The brain/mind is operative and involved in both. Learning to differentiate between the two is the pursuit of a lifetime. Of course, if we look at these two phenomena as being one and the same and then throw ALL experiential phenomena into either one of these two categories, we may end up discounting the other and fail to understand or experience the full range/veracity of the other.

We've seen individuals that chalk up almost all experiences involving emotional surges/decision making "a ha's"/truthiness feelings, etc., to "the Spirit". OTOH, we see those that chalk up these same sorts of life experiences to pure "mind" and biological processes exclusively. Moving to one or other extreme limits the possibility of understanding what may be the full nature/scope of reality.

The example that you post does not entail reason for disbelief in God or the Spirit. Is it not reasonable to believe that God would create relationships/experiences with his creations on many different levels and in many different ways suited to those that are involved...including some forms of idol worship?

What your post demonstrates is that the mind body connection can manufacture religiosity and feelings of 'the spirit' with training and on command in certain situations and using common everyday stimuli. But that is not to say that the HG cannot do the same thing, but on a different experiential level. You seem to place all your faith in the materialist position to the exclusion of what Joseph Smith referred to as a finer state of matter...the spirit.

Kind of off subject, but check out the LOST (television show) official website and checkout the "mirror world" theory for what's going on with this show. Crazy stuff! You start getting into non-physical phenomena and it's a wide world of speculation...why NOT spirit?

Regards,
MG
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

mentalgymnast:

The example that you post does not entail reason for disbelief in God or the Spirit.


Quite.

What it does do is considerably to reduce the value of allegedly 'spiritual' experiences reported by individuals as evidence of anything over and above the mere fact that they are in the habit of practicing certain 'religious' routines.
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